Talk:Himalayas

Status quo

I have reverted user:Fayninja’s last edit. The text they have proposed to add, "It is the highest, youngest and most active continental mountain range on Earth," (with "continental" linked to Continental plate) is ambiguous. What is the most active range? As the Himalayas are not volcanic, does it mean the rate of subduction is the highest, or the speed of uplifting or the rate of compression of the tectonic plates or do they mean it has more active faults than other ranges? If the last, then how are active faults summed across a range? How will an average reader understand this if subduction is introduced much later in the lead? There are similar issues of ambiguity with pretty much everything they have added. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:58, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

To understand the complexity, even in a small section of the Himalayas, please read the geology section of the WP:FA Darjeeling, for example:

The Darjeeling hills have been formed by accumulations of folds, faults and tangential thrusts caused by a compression in the north–south direction as the Indian tectonic plate has subducted under the Eurasian plate.[72] Their physical composition varies from unaltered sedimentary rocks in the southern regions to several types of metamorphic rock and some intrusive rocks in the middle and northern, suggesting upward intrusion of the earth's mantle.[72] The collective process has sheared, folded, crushed together, fractured and jointed the rocks, reducing their strength and making them vulnerable to water percolating down their crevices and causing pore water pressure to build up.[72] Phyllites and schists are found in the hills around Kalimpong, which lies to the east, and gneiss predominates the western regions in which Darjeeling lies.[72]

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:13, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

In other words, @Fayninja:, how can we say that when two relatively porous continental plates collide, the Indian plate and the Eurasian plate, the complicated crumpling and stacking produced (as demonstrated, for example, in one small section of the range above) is somehow more active than when the denser oceanic Nazca plate more cleanly subducts under the continental South American plate to uplift the Andes—that are nonetheless full of volcanic activity? Also, is it clear that the Himalayas are more active than the Karakorams, or necessarily younger? I feel hazarding these large-scale judgments, cited to a chapter of a speciality secondary source, serves little encyclopedic purpose.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

The Himalayas are labelled as the "most active" continental mountain range by experts due to their geological and tectonic characteristics, including ongoing processes of continental under thrusting, rotational movements, and rapid uplift. Nevertheless, using the term "active" can be misleading for readers since it typically pertains to volcanic activity, unlike the case with the Himalayas, which are not associated with volcanoes.

As to why the Himalayas are younger, the experts state this: The Karakoram-Kohistan-Afghan terrains in the northwest Himalayas witnessed the initial collision between the Indian and the Eurasian Plates. According to Treloar et al. (1989), the first phase of collision resulted in unobtrusive docking of the Indian Plate along the southern part of the Eurasian Plate between 72 and 65Ma. A ‘land-bridge’-type link was formed between the two Plates that allowed large variety of animals and amphibians including frogs (which were the normal residents of the present-day central Asia) to enter for the first time in the Indian Territory. Sahni (1984) estimated the time of migration of the central Asian animals and amphibians as the Maastrichtian (72–66Ma).

The duration of collision was, however, long extended. It had initiated in the northwest and ended up in the northeast Himalayas denoting anticlockwise rotation of the Indian Plate. Gibbons et al. (2015) elucidated a multistaged collision history between the Indian and Eurasian Plates: The collision of the Greater India with the Tethyan intraoceanic Arc in Paleocene-Eocene time that led to the final closing of the Tethyan seaway during the middle to late Eocene time. Geological evidence from the collision zone indicates an age of initial Arc-Continent collision at ~52Ma. Fayninja (talk) 14:37, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

You are copying text. Please communicate by summarizing. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:51, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I understand that they are young. But to make a blanket claim of youngest in the second or third sentence of the lead does not add encyclopedic information in a digestible form, for it lacks WP:COHERENCE. To venture into a fine-honed lead of many years and to add bits and pieces of information here and there is to risk tampering with coherence and cohesion. Leads of high-level articles are not easily written. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:01, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

The reason I wanted to change the lead was because of the unverifiable claim of their being over 100 peaks above 7200 metres. If you read my edit, you will come to know that there are actually not that many which hold that distinction. Fayninja (talk) 15:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure about Wikipedia tables. The Britannica article "Himalayas" written by Shiba P. Chatterjee and Barry Bishop states in its second sentence,"The Himalayas include the highest mountains in the world, with more than 110 peaks rising to elevations of 24,000 feet (7,300 metres) or more above sea level." Not sure how mountains are being counted:Britannica is certainly not including the Karakorams and Hindu Kush in the Himalayas, but for what is in place it provides a well-worn source. To say that there are 61 or 58 peaks above 7200 would be tricky, as a tertiary source will be needed to ascertain its content.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I had read that but could not find any primary sources from which they could have retrieved such data. So, I had to trust and go along with NASA. Fayninja (talk) 16:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Basically, the collision went from the West (Karakoram and Northwestern Himalayas) to the East (Central and Eastern Himalayas) through a pivoting motion of the Indian plate. The first impact occurred between 72 and 65Ma in the Karakoram region and the collision to the rest of the Eurasian plate (following the present-day Himalayan arc) was completed at ~52Ma. Fayninja (talk) 15:17, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Well I don't think things were that clear cut, nor for that matter how the age of mountains is decided. Subduction can take place in different and distinct spurts. Essentially the age of a mountain is decided by whether it is growing or whether erosion has begun to set in. The main impact of the Indian plate, from what I remember from my undergraduate geology book, was along the India-Nepal border and it experienced a westward torque. The theories of the mechanism keep changing. This is the problem with editing the lead of an article with specialized sources each of which is competing with other specialized sources to have their say. It is best to stick to tertiary sources. I've flown over the Karakorams. They are certainly more jagged than the Himalayas, signifying continued growth. Wikipedia must have an article that speaks to this. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:43, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Geology of the Himalayas#Making of the Himalayas says: "In the Late Cretaceous (84 Ma), the Indian plate began its very rapid northward drift covering a distance of about 6000 km, with the oceanic-oceanic subduction continuing until the final closure of the oceanic basin and the obduction of oceanic ophiolite onto India and the beginning of continent-continent tectonic interaction starting at about 65 Ma in the Central Himalaya. The change of the relative speed between the Indian and Asian plates from very fast (18-19.5 cm/yr) to fast (4.5 cm/yr) at about 55 Ma is circumstantial support for collision then. Since then there has been about 2500 km of crustal shortening and rotating of India by 45° counterclockwise in the Northwestern Himalaya to 10°-15° counterclockwise in North Central Nepal relative to Asia (Fig. 4)" Anyway, I don't think much purpose is served by declaring the Himalayas the youngest mountain chain and not some very high mountains in their midst, the youngest mountains. But that does not belong to the lead either. Sorry. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:08, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

So, academic textbooks are the go to source for adding anything to Wikipedia articles. Fayninja (talk) 01:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

That is certainly my preference especially for high level or broad scale articles. More tomorrow. Sleep beckons. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:48, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Sleep well! Fayninja (talk) 04:02, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't their greater jaggedness suggest a lengthier period of uninterrupted erosion, indicating that they predate the Himalayas?

To make such an assertion, we must assume a uniform erosion rate throughout the entire area. Fayninja (talk) 04:01, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I was talking about wind erosion, not glacial erosion. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:59, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

See, for example, Mike Searle's Colliding Continents, OUP, 2013, Chapter 3,

Dreaming Spires of the Karakoram,

The geology of the Karakoram Range is similar to that beneath the Tibetan Plateau to the east, but whereas Tibet is high and flat with an extremely arid climate and very little erosion, the Karakoram has a similar average elevation of about 5 kilometres, but has enormously high relief, deep glacial erosion and exposes mainly metamorphic and granitic rocks that were formed at great depth and subsequently uplifted during the India–Asia collision. Whereas the geology of Kashmir, Ladakh, and Zanskar revealed the fate of the Indian side of the great collision, the Karakoram would show the geological results of the collision along the Asian margin.

Combine this with the fact that the India-Asia collision took place in the Central Himalayas, along what is today the India-Nepal order, it is not clear at all that the Himalayas are younger than the Karakorams in terms of uplift. Dating the rocks is not helpful, as you can have old rocks that may have been uplifted at a later date.

"Spires" is a good word. The Karakorams are a surreal landscape of steep tower-like mountains, all clustered together. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:16, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

While examining the separate chapter publications on ScienceDirect, I regarded them as independent research articles. However, I discovered that these chapters were actually extracted from a published book by Elsevier, making it a tertiary source. Sorry for the oversight. Despite my search, I have not come across any other tertiary sources that oppose the claim made in this book, stating that they are not the youngest. Nevertheless, I understand if you prefer not to include the term "youngest" in the introduction, taking into account varying collision theories.

Btw, did you find any elevation data that they could have used to make this statement in the Britanica: "The Himalayas include the highest mountains in the world, with more than 110 peaks rising to elevations of 24,000 feet (7,300 metres) or more above sea level."

NASA's estimate is much lower: "The Himalayas, home to the tallest mountains on Earth, include more than 110 peaks and stretch 2,500 kilometres (1,550 miles)."

"The snowcapped Himalayas trend in a southeast-northwest arc with more than 30 peaks rising to heights of more than 24 000 feet (7300 meters)."

If you prefer the many Britannica contributors over NASA, I am fine with that too. Fayninja (talk) 15:17, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Please leave it as is. The Youngest statement has been confirmed by multiple sources and is the most widely accepted theory. It won't look good if the Wikipedia contradicts most other sources of information about a very much searched about topic. 117.197.254.209 (talk) 14:46, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Adding hindi name of himalaya next to the Himalayas.

According to Wikipedia's guideline WP:NOINDICSCRIPT , for Hinduism-related articles, the use of Indic languages is permitted. Therefore, for topics such as the Himalayas, which is related to Hinduism, the use of Indic languages is acceptable. So, I propose to add this information. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 01:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

No. This is an article about a mountain range. Topics 'related to Hinduism' are articles directly about religion. MrOllie (talk) 01:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It is directly related to Hinduism. Go the subheading of this article of "Religion". I can also show you multiple sources available on internet to prove this claim. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 01:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

https://www.thehansindia.com/amp/featured/sunday-hans/the-spiritual-significance-of-the-himalayas-745531 This source is enough to end this discussion and further arguments. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 01:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

You have to actually convince people to support your changes somehow, and simply declaring that discussion is at an end will not do so. MrOllie (talk) 01:58, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I proved it that it's related to Hinduism. Now, if you hv further doubts, go on. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 02:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The article would have to be directly about Hinduism to qualify for the exception. A tenuous relationship is not sufficient. MrOllie (talk) 02:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It is directly related. I literally attached a source to prove this claim. If you don't have knowledge about this topic, please refrain yourself from such topics. Thank you! TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 02:47, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Ipse dixit. Also, making personal attacks about other people's level of knowledge will not cause others to support your proposals. Since we are duplicating comments here and at Talk:Ganges I do not plan on responding to this talk page again until something unique is brought here. MrOllie (talk) 02:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, good. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 02:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

You started this debate by removing replacing Urdu (which was only added yesterday) with Hindi, with an edit summary of "This mountains ranges has nothing to do with urdu[sic]".
I deleted the Hindi with an edit summary of "Lets avoid multiple languages" because the Himalayas are in five countries Nepal, China, Pakistan, Bhutan and India, some of which use multiple languages. There is already a detailed section on the name, which makes such inclusion in the lead unnecessary, and it would become unnecessarily cluttered if they were all included, and we would not choose one language for inclusion over the others. - Arjayay (talk) 10:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

That's basically my thought on this as well. An article that would be fall into the exception would be one that is primarily focused on Hinduism. It's not intended to be a broad exception, and this would be pushing it to way beyond where it was intended.

And the OP has been blocked as a sock, so fairly moot discussion. Ravensfire (talk) 00:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)