Talk:Harvey Milk/Archive 15

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Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2017

Alma mater link broken. Working URL is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_at_Albany,_SUNY TheDHC (talk) 14:03, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Done DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 14:14, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Honoring Harvey Milk

Hi all! This November 8th marks the 40th anniversary of Milk's historic election, and San Francisco's Illuminate the Arts is unveiling two works of art in his honor(see project description here). Part of that includes an incredible image of Milk created with the names of well over 100 trailblazers for LGBT rights. An interactive site is currently in the works that would allow visitors to scroll over names and have their corresponding wiki links pop up. BUT some wiki pages are missing, so I'm calling on wikipedia's LGBT community for help in creating these pages and being a part of this incredible initiative.

Please see the list of names (and one place) still waiting for their wiki pages at WT:LGBT#Honoring Harvey Milk. Any and all help would be so very wonderful. Thank you!

Hd93 (talk) 01:27, 27 October 2017 (UTC)   Updated by Mathglot (talk) 21:21, 30 October 2017 (UTC) to add link to single list to avoid duplication.

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Mention Milk's appetite for 16 year old boys?

In such a long article, should not Milk's appetite for 16 year old boys even be mentioned? The name Jack Galen McKinley (John Galen McKinley) is mentioned, but not his age. Nor that the age of consent i California at the time was 18 years.

Should not Gerard Dols claims even get a single sentence?

Humans have flaws, and I don't think that stringent white-washing of someones history is in Wikipedia's best interest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.210.25.127 (talk) 13:48, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

References

Tributes

One of San Francisco's historic streetcars was dedicated to Harvey Milk on Tuesday, October 28, 2008, same day as the film's premier at the Castro Theater. PCC streetcar no. 1051 is painted in the 1970s livery used by the San Francisco Municipal Railway and appeared briefly in the film Milk. Here are links with additional and supporting information. JamisonWieser 15:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

• Streetcar to be Dedicated to Harvey Milk on Tuesday
• Muni Streetcar No. 1051 Dedicated to Supervisor Harvey Milk
• Harvey Milk Remembered - this has a photo of the onboard tribute
• PCC Streetcar Makes a Cameo in Harvey Milk Movie

In 1947, Harvey Milk was among a group of shirtless men arrested for indecent exposure in Central Park

• "In 1947, for instance, Harvey Milk was among a group of shirtless men arrested for indecent exposure in Central Park, yet the bare-chested married men in the park weren't harassed."

• https://www.stuffmomnevertoldyou.com/blogs/how-american-men-won-the-right-to-go-topless.htm

• "The police in Central Park routinely rounded up homosexuals. Officers cited them for indecent exposure because some gay men were shirtless. ... In August 1947, police arrested a shirtless Harvey, then seventeen..."

• https://books.google.com/books?id=n-JhDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=Milk arrested

69.181.23.220 (talk) 08:58, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Redistricting poorly mentioned in the lead

Perhaps Milk’s greatest political achievement was his ability to shepard the redistricting plan into law, and the only mention in the lead calls it a “shift”. It is also full of (completely unnecessary) puffery that in most cases isn’t sourced. Calling this article an example of some of the best that Wikipedia has to offer is like our stable genius giving himself an A . And that’s really sad. That man from Nantucket (talk) 06:59, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Stark Street, Portland, Oregon

Part of Stark Street has been renamed to commemorate Harvey Milk. I invite editors familiar with this article to update accordingly. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 01:06, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Added a few sentences detailing that; however, I spent nearly 20 minutes trying to get the "access date" section of the citation working properly to no avail (I'm a novice on here). A metaphorical coffee for whoever fixes it. Marcello Ursic (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

People's Temple

This article really downplays his link with Jim Jones' People's Temple. Jones was pro-gay rights which probably helped cement the links, but what is less excusable is how Milk exploited Jones. This only gets one paragraph in this article yet entire books have been written on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.255.234.6 (talk) 16:21, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Milk thought they were a creepy manipulative cult. How many books do you need to say that? Gleeanon409 (talk) 17:09, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Milk happily associated with them and was much closer to them than most biographies suggest. In fact in many cases, including rhe film, it is something which is completely ignored/omittee, presumably because it undermines his "sainthood". That rhe man was just a jobbing politician, wishing to exploit such a group - cynically or otherwise - doesn't fit in with the hagiography. Yet that seems to be what he was, when we look outside his gay rights activism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.255.234.210 (talk) 07:42, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

All politicians happily associate with loads of people, many disreputable. It’s the job. As a politician you represent all the communities, not just the ones you like, or who support you at the time. Jones was duplicitous and conniving, and powerful politically. It would have been career suicide to publicly go against him.

If you have reliable sources that Milk was more involved than all the other politicians then let’s look it over and see if something needs to be added. Otherwise it seems like Milk did what every other politician was doing at the same time, taking advantage of an opportunity while warning his staff to be on their guard.

And, of course entire books have been written on the subject, Jim Jones led what is arguably the most famous suicide cult in history, it would be stunning if there weren’t lots of books about it. People are endlessly fascinated by suicide cults. Gleeanon409 (talk) 07:57, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

picture of stamp

Add a picture of Harvey's stamp in the section Tributes and media (towards the end where the stamp is mentioned).
Such as https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/05/18/National-Politics/Images/Harvey_Milk_Stamp-0e4a4.jpg

Thanks,
red_xiii (talk) 07:59, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

I’ll leave this as unanswered in hopes someone more up on image copyright can answer, however my impression is that it’s artwork that may not be allowed to be reproduced here, but maybe because it’s the USA government it could be used. If no one clears it up within a few weeks add a note again and I can try to get a definitive answer. You could also ask at the WP:Helpdesk. Gleeanon409 (talk) 11:14, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. The image would have to be available on Commons, and even they don't give much guidance on copyright policy on stamps. Until then, this is moot. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 17:00, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

On second thought, you might be able to make an argument to allow this under WP:NFCC, but you're still going to have to do this much yourself before anyone can add the image to the article. Asking at the help desk, as advised above, might be a good place to start. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 17:09, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Best headline I've seen in years

"The Navy made Harvey Milk resign for being gay. Now they’re going to name a ship after him." [1] I see we already have a mention of the ship under "Legacy", and we have a debunking of the story that the Navy discharged him for being gay. But still, you gotta love this headline - what a marvelous distillation of how things have changed in American society! -- MelanieN (talk) 18:54, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Joe Campbell Relationship

I changed seven years younger to "nearly six years younger." Campbell was born October 4, 1936. David Cary Hart (talk) 20:18, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Anita Bryant

Anita Bryant is mentioned but her name isn't linked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Bryant — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:CEF0:ADB0:7199:BEF6:3B4A:B085 (talk) 08:43, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

 Done, linked now. Gleeanon409 (talk) 11:06, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Milk sent a letter to defend Rev. Jones in February '78, not in '76

The article mentions the letter Milk sent to President Carter in the paragraph about the 1976 election. In fact, this letter (which can be read here) was sent in February 1978, while Jones had been holding Timothy Stoen's son by pretending to be the legitimate father of the child, nine months before the Peoples Temple suicide in Guyana. I suggest moving this sentence to the proper section, and rewording with adequate references it to avoid any further misunderstanding (or whitewashing), perhaps by taking Timothy_Stoen#Media_spotlight as an example. Alcaios (talk) 00:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Dank, Gleeanon409, Funcrunch and other authors of the article: any comment? Alcaios (talk) 21:26, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I didn't get an answer —–— not surprising. Alcaios (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Added to the article – I reached de facto consensus since I'm the only one active in this discussion. I insist we should provide context for the letter: Jones had been holding Timothy Stoen's son – Milk denounced Stoen, stating that former Temple members were trying to damage Jones' reputation with "apparent bold-faced lies". I'll wait for your answers, but I shall add it to the article myself if nobody answers as it happened last time. Alcaios (talk) 21:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Milk's complicity in the child murder in Guyana and attacking victims should be showcased more prominently.

~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.59.126.42 (talk) 23:40, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

"relevant?" tag under Legacy

There's a [relevant?] tag in the Legacy section questioning whether Milk opposing the closing of an elementary school is relevant. Currently, the surrounding paragraph explains the rationale for that detail's inclusion - Milk supported the inclusion of everyone in his neighborhood, even the non-gay people with kids who would be using an elementary school. I propose removing the tag. 2603:8080:6E00:F73B:7449:23D7:EAD0:CBD9 (talk) 19:57, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Dianne Feinstein v. Joe

The piece on Harvey Milk says SIR supported Dianne when she ran against Joe Alioto. I worked for both Joe and Dianne, and while she thought of challenging Joe, she never did. I know because I attended ab early Sunday morning when she talked about running against him. He was termed out, and she only became mayor when George Moscone was assassinated.

d 2601:645:500:1410:F4C6:8B76:857:D7AA (talk) 03:51, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Note 8 - typo?

The note in reference 8 is initially discussing White's finances, but the second half of the quote refers to Milk. Is that a mistake? If not maybe some additional context should be added because I'm not clear on the connection. 24.113.239.214 (talk) 10:35, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2023

Change: He started a romantic relationship with Jack Galen McKinley and recruited him to work on conservative Republican Barry Goldwater's 1964 presidential campaign.[16] Their relationship was troubled. When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1964, McKinley was 16 years old.[17]

to

In late 1964, Milk started a romantic relationship with Broadway Stage Manager John Galen "Jack" McKinley, who was born on October 18, 1946, and recruited him to work on conservative Republican Barry Goldwater’s 1964 presidential campaign.[16]

It has been widely repeated that Milk and McKinley’s relationship began when McKinley was underage, based on the account of Randy Shilts in his biography of Milk, The Mayor of Castro Street, which was published in 1982. However, Shilts did not provide any evidence or citation for this claim, nor did he interview Milk or McKinley for his book. He also did not conduct any archival research to verify the dates or ages of the two men. His assertion lacks reliable support. But if they met in late 1964, as Shilts said, McKinley was 18 at the start of their relationship. Beautrix (talk) 01:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: could not find secondary source disputing Shilts' characterization of the relationship, nor any general criticism of the book as unreliable. Further, the argument about McKinley's age is WP:OR as well as based on Find-a-Grave, which is self-published and therefore not WP:RS. Xan747 (talk) 18:39, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Accusations of pedophilia

Considering his relationship with Jack McKinnley began when McKinnley was 16 wouldn't it be relevant to mention that as pedophilia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viktory02 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

No, because it was legal to enter into such a relationship at the time.[2] – Muboshgu (talk) 22:50, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

No, it would not be relevant or accurate to mention that as pedophilia. Pedophilia is a psychiatric disorder that involves sexual attraction to prepubescent children, not teenagers. Moreover, there is no reliable source that confirms that McKinley was 16 when he began his relationship with Milk. The only source that makes this claim is Randy Shilts, who did not provide any evidence or citation for it, nor did he interview Milk or McKinley for his book. He also did not conduct any archival research to verify the dates or ages of the two men. Therefore, his assertion is not supported by any reliable source. If they met in late 1964, as Shilts said, McKinley born Oct 18, 1946 was 18 at the start of their relationship. Beautrix (talk) 01:31, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Randy Shilts' biography of Milk certainly is a reliable source, and that source makes clear McKinley was 16 when his relationship with Milk began. The age of consent in California is 18 and has been 18 since 1913. Pedophilia is a psychiatric diagnosis, colloquially used to describe illegal, inappropriate and predatory relationships, like the one Milk is documented as having. Similar accusations appear on other pages. It's omission degrades this article and is likely due to bias and the desire to protect a 'secular saint.' Dr Fell (talk) 19:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

The relationship took place in New York where it was entirely legal. Additionally, the biography is not reliable on all counts as it contains some demonstrable falsehoods and the biographer failed due diligence on many basic facts asserted therein. This is why reliable primary sources are always needed. Milk's partner appears to have been 17 at the time, and the age of consent in NY where the relationship occurred was much younger than CA's 18. Unless there is reliable primary source evidence confirming this, such as public statements by people involved in the relationship or by notable figures, news articles from RS, or a criminal record, adding criminal accusations violates biographical rules for obvious reasons.

Perhaps more fundamentally may be the misunderstanding that "secular saint" is a real thing. Most people who aren't highly religious do not come to know truth based on blind authority acceptance, so the morality of being gay and of gay rights has nothing to do with individual icons like Milk apart from the fact that people who disagree and errantly think it does are highly motivated to libel him. His arguments and political influence stand on their own rectitude regardless as to whether or not he had personal moral failings. Mistakenly believing his actions reflect on his arguments is the only reason I can imagine why somepony who clearly doesn't know Milk's history or details about his biographer would wish to tar his encyclopedia entry with the worst possible accusation on flimsy ground. I make no presumption of your religious beliefs, but it's worth pointing out that Christian fundamentalists frequently make this mistake in regards to other notable figures of the early gay rights movement (Kinsey for an obvious example) and talk pages for the biography of queer people can become a mess similar to talk pages on conspiracy theories.

Also, I actually have a degree in psychology and have treated patients in clinic prior to grad school (though I later switched careers). You are entirely incorrect on both the DSM's current definition and classification of Pedophilic Disorder, as well as what qualifies for diagnosis of any disorder (criminal/legal referrals or referrals due to interference in social or occupational functioning). But you don't need a degree to know the diagnostic criteria for the disorder as these are easy to look up (prepubescent children only, i.e. preteen in most cases, and the patient must be at least sixteen years old and subjects of their desire at least five years younger). Even then, the DSM-V is primarily an index for billing purposes with treatment suggestions, not a moral compass. As far as we know, Milk was never diagnosed with anything like this, and he was most certainly not convicted of a crime against children as his opponents wanted nothing more than to tar him in the same way you're doing here. Calling queer people pedophiles in general from bigotry or in particular from very weak evidence was once a popular tactic in politics, one which has unfortunately seen recent resurgence.

In future it would behoove you to review primary sources before lobbying for a potentially slanderous accusation in a person's biography.

TricksterWolf (talk) 22:38, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I would like Harvey Milk's Wikipedia page to be updated to show that John Galen "Jack" McKinley was 17 or 18 when he and Harvey Milk started a relationship. I have the Find A Grave source (which I've seen isn't acceptable for Wikipedia), I have the birthdate and death date data from Social Security via the Ancestry.com page, I have the 1950 Federal census page from April 10, 1950 showing that McKinley was 3 at the time, I have an article from The Daily Mail on November 4, 1963 showing that McKinley was 17. Since Milk and McKinley started a relationship in late 1964 that would make McKinley 17 or 18. New York age of consent at that time was 14 years old (way too young, but that's what it was) - age of consent information is based on a Fox News article from today and an article from The Hill dated July 22, 2021 (and other news sources). Southpaw70 (talk) 00:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

No it was not legal at the time at all and it is true about Milk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.14.40.216 (talk) 09:52, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Documents Proving McKinley’s Age

I assert that McKinley was not 16 at the time of meeting Milk. I have evidence in the form of the 1950 US census, the social security death index, and multiple newspaper articles (including obituary) verifying that McKinley turned 18 in 1964, when evidence suggests he first met Milk. As McKinley is verified to have run away from home at age 17 in 1963, it is impossible that he was 16 upon meeting Milk in 1964. This Wikipedia article should be edited to reflect this evidence. 2600:1012:A136:BBD5:45F:9DB7:E68A:A920 (talk) 05:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

There is already a quite lengthy discussion about this going on just above at Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2023. Please go there and actually provide your evidence instead of simply asserting that you have it. Thanks. Xan747 (talk) 14:54, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2023

Please change: "He started a romantic relationship with Jack Galen McKinley and recruited him to work on conservative Republican Barry Goldwater's 1964 presidential campaign.[16] Their relationship was troubled. When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1964, McKinley was 16 years old.[17]He was prone to depression and sometimes threatened to commit suicide if Milk did not show him enough attention.[18]" To this: "He started a romantic relationship with John Galen "Jack" McKinley (born October 18, 1946)and recruited him to work on conservative Republican Barry Goldwater's 1964 presidential campaign. When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1964, McKinley was 17 or 18 years old. Their relationship was troubled. McKinley was prone to depression and sometimes threatened to commit suicide if Milk did not show him enough attention." Southpaw70 (talk) 23:49, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

References

 Not done: Find a Grave is not a reliable source, please see WP:FINDAGRAVE-EL - FlightTime (open channel) 00:06, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

 Note: The exact same request was declined by me for the same reason just over a week ago, by a different, freshly created account. Something doesn't smell right. Xan747 (talk) 00:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I am a different person. I am seeing people accuse Harvey Milk of pedophilia with John Galen "Jack" McKinley. McKinley's age is incorrect, he is 17 or 18 when Milk and him started a relationship in late 1964. So it is important to have the facts out there. It is probably very obvious that I am new to trying to make edits in Wikipedia, but I have sources besides Find A Grave, like the Social Security listing McKinley's birthdate and death date, The Daily Mail article listing that he went missing in November 1963 and was 17 years old at the time, the 1950 census showing him as 3 years old in April 1950. Southpaw70 (talk) 01:35, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I just saw that this is happening right now: California to fine school district $1.5 million for rejecting materials mentioning Harvey Milk Xan747 (talk) 01:53, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

As part of the same story, CNN reports:

Board members who opposed the curriculum called Milk a “pedophile” in the May meeting before voting it down. The 34-year-old Milk had a relationship with a 16-year-old while living in Greenwich Village in New York that has long been a source of controversy, according to the late San Francisco journalist Randy Shilts’ biography of Milk, “The Mayor of Castro Street.” The age of consent in New York was raised from 14 to 18 in 2017. Komrosky said in June that his statements about Milk “were not based upon him being a homosexual, but rather based upon him being an adult having a sexual relationship with a minor.”

The source is still Shilts though.

You won't be able to use the Daily Mail or Fox as sources. The Mail is completely disallowed as a source on Wikipedia, and Fox is highly discouraged when the subject is political--which this is. Find A Grave is sometimes, rarely, allowed when it's clear that it's from public records like Social Security. The problem is that you're trying to combine information from multiple sources to make an argument that none of those sources say on their own, which is known as WP:SYNTH. Matter how good the individual sources are, we simply cannot string them all together to refute what Shilts' well-regarded biography says. Xan747 (talk) 02:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The Daily Mail I'm referencing is a local paper out of Hagerstown, Maryland. I have downloaded a picture of that showing the name of the newspaper and date. I also downloaded a picture of the census page showing that John Galen was 3 years old at the time, which was April 10, 1950. These are consistent with John Galen being 17 or 18 at the time him and Milk started having a relationship in late 1964. What's interesting is that Shilts' book mentions that "at sixteen he decided to quit high school, jump on a Greyhound bus, and leave rural Hagerstown, Maryland, for the gay scene in Greenwich Village he'd heard of." (Kindle Ch. 3, p.1). But his disappearance is noted in The Daily Mail article and lists him as 17 years old on October 22, 1963. Southpaw70 (talk) 05:45, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I bought Randy Shilts book, "The Mayor of Castro Street." I am suggesting some changes to this section of the article: He started a romantic relationship with Jack Galen McKinley and recruited him to work on conservative Republican Barry Goldwater's 1964 presidential campaign. Their relationship was troubled. When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1964, McKinley was 16 years old.

These are the suggested changes:

Milk started a romantic relationship with John Galen "Jack" McKinley after McKinley left Hagerstown, MD at the age of 17 in October 1963. (Note: Several age-related references are listed in order to show constancy. Shilts stated that McKinley was 16 years old when Milk and McKinley started a relationship, but he also states that "Jack Galen McKinley had commited [sic] suicide by the time primary research began on this book."). He recruited McKinley to work on conservative Republican Barry Goldwater's 1964 presidential campaign.[16]

I think "Their relationship was troubled." should be removed because the language doesn't offer a neutral point of view.

I think the next sentence should be removed because the conflicting sources are mentioned a couple of sentences earlier. And also Shilts' book has their relationship starting before the presidential campaign.

"When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1964, McKinley was 16 years old.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflicting_sources

Sometimes, although not often, the policy that our threshold is verifiability, not truth means that although something can only be one or another, we cannot determine which one it is. Southpaw70 (talk) 08:34, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Ok I am digesting this and will get back to you. Xan747 (talk) 16:11, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The unknown adventures of Harvey Milk in Dallas So in January 1967, Milk and his then-20-year-old lover John Galen McKinley packed up their dog Trick and moved to Dallas. This time, Milk had no problem getting a job. He worked at Bache & Co.’s Dallas office in the Mercantile Continental Building at 1810 Commerce St. Xan747 (talk) 16:36, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The age information seems more inline with the other age-related sources, and information on their life (relationship, location, pets) is inline with Randy Shilts' book. Southpaw70 (talk) 19:49, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Why we don't use Ancestry.com:

John (Jack) Galen McKinley

Birth 18 Oct 1946 - Hagerstown, Washington, Maryland, USA

Death 14 February 1980 - New York City, New York, USA

Mother Unavailable

Father Unavailable

Born in Hagerstown, Washington, Maryland, USA on 18 Oct 1946. John (Jack) Galen McKinley married Harvey Bernard Milk. She passed away on 14 February 1980 in New York City, New York, USA.

Xan747 (talk) 17:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The Find A Grave information above differs in some ways from what I'm seeing at https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/189498799/john-galen-mckinley

John Galen “Jack” McKinley

BIRTH 18 Oct 1946 Frostburg, Allegany County, Maryland, USA

DEATH 14 Feb 1980 (aged 33) New York, New York County, New York, USA

BURIAL Rest Haven Cemetery Hagerstown, Washington County, Maryland, USA

And there is no mention of McKinley marrying Milk, or McKinley being referred to as "she."

The memorial part says:

JOHN GALEN (Jack) McKINLEY, 33, of New York City and formerly of Hagerstown, died suddenly Thursday in New York City. Born in Frostburg, he was the son of Robert B. McKinley, Hagerstown; and the late Alice C. Wampler McKinley.

He was employed at the LaMama Theatre Club, NY City. He was a former member of Washington Square United Methodist Church.

Besides his father, he is survived by four sisters: Dorothy Baker, Oxon Hill; Betty Butts, Roanoke, Va.; Alyce Revell, Elkton; and Helen Obitts, Hagerstown; three brothers, David McKinley, Cleveland, Ohio; Robert McKinley, Fairplay; and William McKinley, Williamsport.

Memorial services were held at the LaMama Theatre Club. Burial in Rest Haven Cemetery. Local arrangements were handled by the Rest Haven Funeral Home.

Source: Daily Mail (Hagerstown, MD)

Saturday, February 16, 1980

Southpaw70 (talk) 19:53, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

From a very old talk thread in this page's archives:

I agree that there is little point in stating McKinley's age, although Jimjilin may have miscalculated it. According to Shilts, McKinley was 33 when he died on February 14, 1980 (Mayor of Castro Street, p. 343). If so, McKinley was 17 on February 14, 1964, and was 17 or 18 when Milk met him in late 1964. I believe the reference on p. 30 giving McKinley's age as 16 refers to his age when McKinley first met Tom O'Horgan, not when McKinley moved in with Milk. None of which matters for this Wikipedia entry.Vince Emery 18:35, 19 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vinceemery (talk • contribs)

According to Milk's address book, in which he also recorded the birthdays of people he knew, McKinley was born October 18, 1946. Therefore, when Milk met McKinley in late 1964, McKinley was at least 17 years old, and possibly 18 years old. 17 is the age of consent in New York state, so the pedophile consideration is not valid in this case.Vince Emery 17:21, 6 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vinceemery (talk • contribs)

That editor editor has been active as recently as July 15 of this year, so maybe you could strike up a conversation with him. Xan747 (talk) 17:51, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I didn't think about the math on page 343 of the book, that does align with the census data, and the age at when he went missing from his home on Lanvale St.

On page 30, "John Galen McKinley delighted in telling Harvey this this was the sole explanation of why at sixteen he decided to quit high school, jump a Greyhound bus, and leave rural Hagerstown, Maryland, for the gay scene in Greenwich Village he'd heard rumors of."

Except for the age information, this above matches the November 4, 1963 articles that are posted in The Morning Herald and The Daily Mail from Hagerstown, MD that mention John McKinley was 17 years old when he missing on October 22, 1963.

On page 30, referring to McKinley, "Lodging came easy in New York, first with Tom O'Horgan, an entertainer who had made a small mark in the lounge circuit by telling jokes as he strummed a harp. By 1963, O'Horgan had gone bohemian and was trying his hand at experimental theater. McKinley had lived with O'Horgan for only a few weeks when he came in one day to announce that a handsome businessman twice his age was vying for his affection."

(pg. 30)..."Within a few weeks, McKinley moved into Harvey Milk's Upper West Side apartment. They bought a dog...and settled into a middle-class domestic marriage. At thirty-three, Milk was launching a new life..."

Since it mentions that Harvey Milk was 33 years old and incorporating the news article reporting that 17 year old McKinley went missing October 22, 1963 - this happened sometime between Oct. 22, 1963 and Harvey's May 22, 1964 birthday. The relationship started before May 22, 1964. Do I add Vinceemery to this talk so that he sees our conversation? Southpaw70 (talk) 20:30, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Southpaw70, sorry I got busy on other edit requests and my own interests and forgot that I'd left this hanging. Pinging @Vinceemery, what is your source for the claim that Milk's address book gives McKinley's birth date as October 18, 1946? Note that this is the same birth date listed by Find-a-grave attributed to the Daily Mail (Hagerstown, MD) Saturday, February 16, 1980 obituary. If we can source that newspaper clip then I think we can use that information in this article. Xan747 (talk) 02:59, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

That is no problem at all. I sent a request to https://www.washcolibrary.org/obits for John Galen "Jack" McKinley and Joseph Berger, Information Services Librarian - Genealogy Specialist at the Washington County Free Library in Hagerstown, MD sent me a copy of McKinley's obituary. It doesn't have the date on the clipped article, but the email I received from him says,

Attached is the obituary from the Hagerstown, MD newspapers on microfilm.

MCKINLEY, JOHN G. "JACK", 33, Sat 16-FEB, 1980, DM, C-6/3

DM = The Daily Mail (September 1, 1890 to September 30, 2007)

Joseph Berger

Information Services Librarian - Genealogy Specialist

Project Manager - Historic Newspaper Index

Washington County Free Library

Alice Virginia and David W. Fletcher Branch

[REDACTED - Oshwah]

==================================

Looking at a different source, which is the Social Security Administration's Death Master File (DMF) [3]https://www.ssa.gov/dataexchange/request_dmf.html?tl=0, they provide that file to the Department of Commerce's National Technical Information Service (NTIS) [4]https://dmf.ntis.gov/; the NTIS sells the DMF to other agencies. Ancestry has purchased the DMF and makes it searchable on the Ancestry.com website. Here is a FAQ on Ancestry regarding the Social Security Death Index [5]https://search.ancestry.com/search/rectype/vital/ssdi/faq.aspx.

Ancestry.com at [6]https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/3693/ says, "Beginning in 2014, legislative rules governing the SSDI changed. Going forward, records from the most recent 3 year period will not be available to Ancestry.com. Once a record is made available, it can be published."

I'm not sure if you can access this for free, or if you have to subscribe, but here is a link to John McKinley in the Social Security Death Index [Redacted - Oshwah]. In case you can't access the link, here is the text which was done by copy and paste:

John McKinley

Name

John McKinley

Social Security Number

[REDACTED - Oshwah]

Birth Date

18 Oct 1946

Issue year

1962

Issue State

Maryland

Last Benefit

[REDACTED - Oshwah]

Death Date

Feb 1980

==== Source Citation ====

Social Security Administration; Washington D.C., USA; Social Security Death Index, Master File

==== Source Information ====

Ancestry.com. U.S., Social Security Death Index, 1935-2014 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2014.

Original data: Social Security Administration. Social Security Death Index, Master File. Social Security Administration.

==== Description ====

The Social Security Administration Death Master File contains information on millions of deceased individuals with United States social security numbers whose deaths were reported to the Social Security Administration. Birth years for the individuals listed range from 1875 to last year. Information in these records includes name, birth date, death date, and last known residence.

=========================================================

I have found a free genealogy source that pulls data from the Social Security Death Index:

[REDACTED - Oshwah] Southpaw70 (talk) 23:26, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Southpaw70 - Woah there, partner! I had to suppress some information that you pasted in your response above. Addresses and social security numbers of people (even those who are no longer alive), in general, should not be publicly disclosed on Wikipedia. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:50, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Oversight mentions non-public information. I posted this information above: Ancestry.com at [5]https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/3693/ says, "Beginning in 2014, legislative rules governing the SSDI changed. Going forward, records from the most recent 3 year period will not be available to Ancestry.com. Once a record is made available, it can be published." Southpaw70 (talk) 03:30, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

The following is a response that tripped an edit filter, but it doesn't appear to be talk page abuse, so I'm copying it to here after a request of WP:EFFP:

Vinceemery I have been writing with @Xan747 about John Galen "Jack" McKinley's sentences on the Harvey Milk page. Xan747 mentioned that maybe I should communicate with you on this. I originally became concerned when McKinley's age was being brought up at school board meetings in Southern California, and Harvey Milk was being accused of being a pedophile. I see some sources that point to McKinley being 17 years old by early 1964 (social security records via Ancestry but they pull it from the Social Security Death Master File, the 1950 US Census, and The Morning Herald and The Daily Mail, both of Hagerstown, MD, with a small article reporting that 17 year old John McKinley went missing on October 22, 1963.) The social security records give the actual birthdate of October 18, 1946; the 1950 Census shows that McKinley is 3 years old by April 10, 1950; and two identical articles that ran in the local papers show that McKinley was 17 years old by the time he disappeared on October 22, 1963. Shilts' book mentions twice on page 30 that McKinley is 16 years old, but on page 376 he says that "Jack Galen McKinley commited [sic] suicide by the time primary research began on this book." So Shilts did not get to talk with McKinley and verify any of the information about him.

I think "Their relationship was troubled." should be removed because the language doesn't offer a neutral point of view.

On page 30, "John Galen McKinley delighted in telling Harvey this this was the sole explanation of why at sixteen he decided to quit high school, jump a Greyhound bus, and leave rural Hagerstown, Maryland, for the gay scene in Greenwich Village he'd heard rumors of."

Except for the age information, this above info. matches the November 4, 1963 articles that are posted in The Morning Herald and The Daily Mail from Hagerstown, MD that mention John McKinley was 17 years old when he went missing on October 22, 1963.

On page 30, referring to McKinley, "Lodging came easy in New York, first with Tom O'Horgan, an entertainer who had made a small mark in the lounge circuit by telling jokes as he strummed a harp. By 1963, O'Horgan had gone bohemian and was trying his hand at experimental theater. McKinley had lived with O'Horgan for only a few weeks when he came in one day to announce that a handsome businessman twice his age was vying for his affection."

(pg. 30)..."Within a few weeks, McKinley moved into Harvey Milk's Upper West Side apartment. They bought a dog...and settled into a middle-class domestic marriage. At thirty-three, Milk was launching a new life..."

Since it mentions that Harvey Milk was 33 years old and incorporating the news article reporting that 17 year old McKinley went missing October 22, 1963 - this happened sometime between Oct. 22, 1963 and Harvey's May 22, 1964 birthday. The relationship started before May 22, 1964.

I believe this sentence should be changed to incorporate the information above:"When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1964, McKinley was 16 years old."

Maybe it could be changed to update the timeframe they met and McKinley's age, "When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1963 or early 1964, McKinley was 17 years old."

Southpaw70 (talk) 04:19, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:22, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Is the use of LGBT anachronistic?

LGBT is modern political ideology / concept. It can't be said with any exactitude that he would have suppported LGBT positions. Surely it would be more accurate to refer to him as being not only gay or homosexual, but as a supporter of gay, homosexual, lesbian and same sex attracted rights? 2400:2410:9520:4C00:51C5:A7A0:4FF8:E941 (talk) 13:39, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Since multiple reliable sources retroactively refer to him as a member of the LGBT community, it's ok for us to do the same. (It would be different if multiple RS noted substantial controversy over that classification.) Xan747 ✈️ 🧑‍✈️ 21:17, 20 September 2023 (UTC)