Talk:Green Man

Connectin to celtic art ? (Glauberg statues)

Hello, I just wondered whether there might be a connection of the "Green Man" with celtic art - especially that of the statue(s) of the "Prince of the Glauberg" in Germany, as to be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg

The "bubbles" around the ears seem to be leaves, which would add to the interpretation of the "Green Man" being a symbol or even a deity of celtic origin. It would imho make sense to depict a prince or a king with signs of authority - of which elements symbolising a deity would be a good example. Alrik Fassbauer (talk) 23:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion

Make a section listing fictional depictions of the Green Man. I know Robert Jordan's The Eye of the World prominently included the Green Man, and I can't believe that to be the only example. --maru (talk) Contribs 23:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Another fictional depiction of the Green Man that might be of interest to mention is the character of Tom Bombadil in J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. -- Sam, 12:50, 22 February 2006

Hard to see Bombadil as the Green Man, possibly Ghan Buri Ghan is closer. GhanBuri Ghan is described as a woodwose or wildman, not necessarily the same thing. There was a novel called The Green MAn by Kingsley Amis, made into a TV movie starring Albert Finney in 1990 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098813/ Pignut 07:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)pignut

Jolly Green Giant

In modern times, the Green Man occurs in sometimes unexpected places: Del Monte's advertising character the 'Jolly Green Giant' is, in essence, a modern derivation of the archetype.

How so? This is an interesting idea but I can't begin to see how it could be justified. Just becaue they're both green and leafy? It seems like a thought off the top of someone's head. If there's any evidence for this idea let's see it! Flapdragon 02:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, probably because they're both green and leafy. It's not necessarily an intentioal derivation, and mentioning it in Wikipedia is iffy, IMO, but I can see a case being made. That's the thing with archetypes; they show up where you find them, not necessarily where someone (consciously) intended them to be.

Septegram 14:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

That may be true, but I don't see how this is an example. Even if the implication is just that the GM was somehow subconsciously present in the mind of whoever invented the JGG, it's pretty dubious. The JGG has green skin and wears leaves; the GM isn't literally green in colour, he's usually found carved in unpainted stone or wood, and the foliage is part of him. Anyway he's a just head adorning a surface, rather than a three-dimensional whole man. A pretty weak link. We'd be on better ground comparing the JGG with Adam and Eve, or Shrek, but would anyone think that was an enlightening parallel? Flapdragon 18:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Thinking about both this parallel and the one above with Tom Bombadil, I begin to wonder whether there is some confusion in people's minds between the architectural motif of the Green Man and the legendary/heraldic archetype of the Wild Man or the Old Man of the Woods. Flapdragon 18:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The GM is an archetypal character and I agree, is related to the Jolly Green Giant and Tom Bombadil, it's more of a "mother nature" kind of symbol... They may not have decided to base said commercial figures on the GM myth, but all the same the symbolism is the same. I also think to much emphasis is placed on the GM's archetectural appeal, he was a myth originally and was not created for archetectural use (pardon my spelling). Personally I think that the Jolly Green Giant and other figures should be put in another category, something to do with the archetype and symbol that the greenman has become. Remember, he developed independant of culture in many parts of the world, that is what makes him an archetype, so perhapse the JGG is just another form of that culturally independant Green Man.

Leif902 22:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Bog Brothers

I have tested the link to Bog Brothers - Beloved Order of the Green Man. This link was found not to work; the address does not function correctly. I could find no other mention of BOG on a search. I have replaced this link with an alternative link to which I believe the author/editor was referring. abdullahazzam need photos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.83.169 (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Who's William Anderson?

There about 10 or so people by this name on Wiki, to none of whom is the Green Man quote obviously attributable. How about a direct link?

Discuss the history of the Green Man

According to my studies, the Green Man was a pagan deity of the forest. He was also known as Jack of the Green and was the personification of the greening of the earth with the coming of Spring. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Utahwitch (talk • contribs) 16:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Ronald Hutton in his book "Stations of the Sun" claims that there is no connection between Jack in the Green and the Green Man, and says that the Jack in the Green May Day figure, was originally a milkmaid wearing crockery on her head. I can't follow his argument though and don't find it convincing.

I have seen the green man head in Etruscan art. There is a reference to "Russia's Jack in the Green". I'm assuming that this is a typo, so what is the green man called in Russia? Golden Bough is probably a good source, but I don't have it handy.

It's been claimed that the green man carvings spread from Germany in the middle ages, so they are not an indigenous British tradition. I would like this issue cleared up as there is contradictory evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Userlogin&returnto=Talk:Green_Man

My appologies. My computer didn't display the last part of the article where this is briefly talked about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pignut (talk • contribs)

"The Green Man" is also a common traditional English Pub name. Sometimes said to be associated with foresters. "Green Man pub signs will sometimes feature pictures of Robin Hood, or the Green Man head Pignut 09:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)pignut

Alhambra

Is that the Christian or the Moorish part of the Alhambra? --84.20.17.84 10:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Lady Raglan

We should add a link to the Lady Raglan who coined the name -- I don't know the correct link myself. (I'm guessing that she is the former Julia Hamilton, wife of FitzRoy Somerset, 4th Baron Raglan.) -- 201.19.11.75 12:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Kjili?

One of the picture captions says: "A medieval Green Man on the capital of a column in an English kjili" - the last word appears to be gibberish. Crypto-vandalism? Smithfarm too lazy to sign in 85.71.124.239 (talk) 20:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it was vandalism from last October or November that had not been caught. It is now fixed. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 18:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Ressurection theme?

I removed the following paragraph from the article and bring it here for discussion:

The Resurrection theme is present in many of the independent figures linked to the green man. Foliate heads and masks have served as images for Rome's Bacchus, Egypt's Osiris, Greece's Dionysus, Britain's "The Green Knight" and Jack in the in all of these separate artistic representations of foliate heads, with similar death/rebirth themes spanning millennia of time in Europe, North Africa, and Asia. Green Men masks and gargoyles can be seen in London's Westminster Abbey, The Spanish Alhambra, British "Green Man" houses, Moscow's cathedrals, the ancient Egyptian Museum in Torino Italy, New York City's brown stones, and mosques in India. The personified leaf mask has been historically resurrected as a symbol for many western rebirth myths; perhaps due to cultural adoption, or mere chance.

It is a rather long paragraph, which repeats things that have already been said elsewhere in the article, has a speculative and unencyclopædic tone, and has no references for its claims. And then, it ends on a note of uncertainty as to its argument. All in all, rather problematic, I would say. Thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 19:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Floating Table of Contents

Can anyone assist this reader, in his ignorance, by explaining the purpose of the {{TOCleft}} template in the article? In his browser (which of course may not be representative) it is displacing the "Types of Green Man" section head awkwardly to the right, while leaving the rest of the paragraph aligned to the left. --Old Moonraker (talk) 18:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, it's been a week now: I propose deleting it in favor of the standard table of contents. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Replaced by standard ToC; no longer forms part of the "Types of Green Man" section title. User preferences may be set to default at "Hide ToC" if the excess white space is a problem. Good luck! --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Removal of section

I sujest the seciton "Trivia" be removed as it contains a Lists of miscellaneous information. Overmind 900 (talk) 14:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Can't see anything of relevance or value there. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It's filling up again: a pop track and two mentions ("quite possibly" referencing the Green Man — pur-lease) in computer games. Views on removing it once more? --Old Moonraker (talk) 08:47, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Lose it. We lost Jethro Tull's Songs from the Wood, the Wicker Man and the Kingsley Amis BBC film adaptation from this list long ago (all equally valid – or invalid – references). If the editors of the articles on album tracks, novels, films or game characters think their pages relate to Green Man, those pages should link to this page, but probably not vice versa. On those grounds, I think the Amis novel ref (in Further reading) could probably go, as it's the first item on the disambiguation page? SiGarb | (Talk) 21:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Relation to the God Pan

I think it is true that the green man is an offshoot of the greek god pan or is very similar, nowhere in the article does it mention pan at all, I think there should be a section with info on pan and other similar dieties. Any thoughts? Wizard 109109 (talk) 21:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Should be in. Here's a source to start us off. --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

"Modern images" section removed

I have removed this whole section as it seems to be unsupported by any independently verifiable references. Has the thesis been published? If not, it is inadmissible as a Wikipedia source. Sorry. SiGarb | Talk 16:22, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the thesis is published as a book, a monograph by Verlag: https://www.amazon.com.au/Green-Man-Resurrected/dp/3639282205

It's cited and referenced by other scholars as well being a scholarly peer reviewed piece. Here's a link to the published thesis: https://research.usc.edu.au/esploro/outputs/graduate/Green-Man-Resurrected-An-Examination-of/99450226802621?institution=61USC_INST 118.208.210.4 (talk) 04:34, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

The Green Man image has made a significant resurgence in modern times. As documented by artist Phyllis Araneo in her 2006 master’s thesis, artists from around the world have interwoven the Green Man imagery into various and striking modes of work.

Among some of the artists mentioned by Araneo are North American artist Fred Tomaselli, creator of “Breathing Head 2002,” a collage representation of Green Man made of leaves, photos, acrylic, gouache, and resin on a wood panel; English artist Paul Sivell, who created the “Whitefield Green Man,” a wood carving worked into a dead section of a living oak tree; David Eveleigh, an English garden designer who created the “Penpont Green Man Millennium Maze,” located in Powys, Wales (the largest depiction of a Green Man image in the world); and M.J. Anderson, a US based sculptor who created the marble sculpture titled “Green Man as Original Coastal Aboriginal Man of All Time from Whence the Bush and All of Nature Sprouts from his Fingers.” Other artists mentioned by Araneo include Ghana-born Jane Brideson, Australian artist Marjorie Bussey, American artist Monica Richards (also known as a singer and composer), and English artist Peter Pracownik, whose stylistic Green Man art has been depicted in several mediums including full-body tattoos.

These artists and others have continued the path and tradition of the ancient Green Man imagery into modern times, a creation which Araneo calls “an instinctive expression of our relationship with nature.” The modern images have often shown a marked divergence from the traditional face-only image attributed to Green Man, and sometimes reveal a feminine nature, though this is still rare. American artist Rob Juszak, for example, has taken the theme of the Green Man representing Earth’s spiritual protector and turned it into a vision of the Green Man cradling the entire planet; artist Dorothy “Bunny” Bowen, also American, created the kimono silk painting, titled “Greenwoman,” as an expression of the feminine aspect of the Green Man legend.

Modern Images

I corrected (I hope) my original section on Modern Images. I first learned of the various artists mentioned through the work of Phyllis Araneo, whose original thesis on the subject is published online at the Coast Research Database maintained by the University of the Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia. I cited this database for anyone who wishes to read her thesis. I have also added external links to the artworks featured in the section so that readers can get a visual sense of the variety of the modern renderings of Green Man. I'm still looking for a couple of them; if I find them I'll add those links too, or possibly a picture in text. Dgu56 (talk) 17:52, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Since the Whitefield Green Man by Paul Sivell image is now imbedded in the article, perhaps we should remove the external link to the Whitefield Green Man image in the Modern Images section?Dgu56 (talk) 04:20, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, probably, as it's a commercial site, strictly speaking. I should have done that yesterday (story of my life… ;-) ) SiGarb | Talk 10:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Changing Condecending Tones

I replaced the "Mythical" in the following sentence to "Religous" ""Religous figures such as Cernunnos, Sylvanus, Derg Corra, Green George, Jack in the green, John Barleycorn, Robin Goodfellow, Puck, and the Green Knight all partake of the Green Man's nature;"". I did this because mythical implies falsehood and contempt toward those who see "The Green Man" as a religous figure, and since people don't refer Christianity on here to mythology, I saw it as insulting to do so with another, arguably older, religion. CelticsFinest (talk) 02:34, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

No, "mythical" was the proper term. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 02:45, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

"No, "mythical" was the proper term." - not necessarily: many of these figures don't feature in myth, at least as it has come down to us. Cernunnos, for example, is a religious figure. The Green Knight is literary. Others are part of folklore.In fact, I can't see a strong case for any of these figures being mythical, per se, except maybe Sylvanus (who may be mentioned in Roman myth but who was still probably predominantly a cult-figure) and Derg Corra, who I don't know much about.Volkodlak (talk) 00:28, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Vertumnus

Any connection between the Green Man motif and the Roman god Vertumnus? Lily20 (talk) 20:26, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Green Men in literature

Odd that there's no section on Green Men in literature - any chance of making one? I've added a 'see also' link to The Green Man, a novel by Kingsley Amis featuring a Green Man. There are plenty of other examples. 81.156.175.248 (talk) 08:56, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Look back in the history a couple of years, to when there was an ever-growing Trivia section in this article (that included the Kingsley Amis novel); including modern literature, for some reason, seemed to open the door to all sorts of marginally relevant stuff. SiGarb | (Talk) 22:12, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I also seem to recall an episode of Between the Lions which featured a story about a Green Man. Raxicoricofallapatorius (talk) 01:11, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

There's an article here: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00144940209597655

which relates the Green Man to a scene in Lear. Sadly, I can't find the whole article online.Baron ridiculous (talk) 03:34, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Other "Green Men" in modern, children's, fantasy literature --at least inspired by the Green Man of this article-- may be

1. [1] Green Noah in the Green Knowe series (for whom the Green Knowe estate or house is named?), 1954
2. [2] the Greenwitch, title personage in the Dark Is Rising series, book 3, Greenwitch, 1974

--P64 (talk) 17:27, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Osiris, corn deity?

sorry but Osiris is not a corn diety. corn developed in meso america; Osiris is an emmer/barley diety. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.114.148.167 (talk) 21:03, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

In UK English, "corn" can refer to cereal grains such as barley. "Maize" is the unambiguous term for the crop native to meso-America. __Just plain Bill (talk) 03:06, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Good point, Bill. ---RepublicanJacobite_TheFortyFive 17:32, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

bad link

http://www.mikeharding.co.uk/greenman/green6.html

This is source 12. No such web page. MathewTownsend (talk) 23:31, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Replaced. Thanks for noticing, and don't forget WP:BOLD! All the best.--Old Moonraker (talk) 08:21, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Correct to describe the Green Man only as "a sculpture or drawing"?

The article's introduction describes the Green Man as "a sculpture, drawing, or other representation of a face surrounded by or made from leaves". This seems to be rather than putting the cart before the horse. Surely the Green Man is a personification of nature found in folklore, just like Mother Nature. I really think the slant of the introduction needs changing to reflect this.Gymnophoria (talk) 11:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Isn't this article about the "foliate heads" originally found in churches and other mediaeval buildings? If so, it seems in order for the lede sentence to start as it does. That doesn't mean that the "mother nature" or English folklore associations couldn't be developed; at present there's more on "Green Men outside Europe"—perhaps failing the WP:TOPIC test—than the actual provenance. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:30, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Etymological Citation Needed

Under the heading Related Characters is a reference to research which is not cited. This line in question is "Etymological research by the University of Wales into the meaning of the names of Celtic gods and goddesses shows that one Celtic deity, Viridios, has a name meaning "Green Man" in both the Celtic languages and Latin". Does anyone know where the research mentioned in the above line can be found? Wirdjos (talk) 14:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not know about the research, but I can't help noticing that "vir" in Latin and "fear" in modern Irish and Scots Gaelic mean "man." Something similar could be said for "dios" and "god." That might be more of an opportunity for a play on words than valid etymology, and is nothing more than idle speculation on my part. Just plain Bill (talk) 15:42, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Outside Europe

Twice corn is mentioned in association with the Egyptian God Osiris. Either citation is needed or this needs removed. Corn did not exist in Egypt until the 18th century. There are no mentions of corn in Wikipedia's Osiris article, there are no respected Egyptologists that connect Osiris with corn, and I can find no art associated with Osiris that shows anything that could be definitively identified as corn. He was indeed a god associated with crops and growth, but not maize. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raszoo (talk • contribs) 02:53, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

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Riddley Walker

In a post-apocalyptic southeast England (called "inland" in the narrator's idiom) Hoban's protagonist finds a carved wooden face which he calls "Greanvine". IIRC, it is described as a disgorging head, with foliage coming from the mouth. In context, it is plainly meant to be a Green Man. I could find quotes with page numbers, but hesitate to add what might be construed as original research with only a primary source. If anyone knows of scholarly commentary on this, adding a sourced paragraph to the article would be splendid. Just plain Bill (talk) 22:17, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Not Pagan?

Starting a talk section to hash out some thoughts before editing. The article suggests in the section titled "Churches" that the green man is not a pagan symbol, or "superficially appearing to be pagan", because he appears in churches. I'd argue this makes the initial assumption that churches categorically bar any and all pagan symbols. I'd further argue this assumption is incorrect because of the well-documented and rather expansive history of christianity adopting pagan symbols. Evergreen wreaths, gargoyles, and the triquerta to name a few. Christians themselves (some of them at least) recognize that some of their symbols have been "borrowed", to quote catholicexchange.com, from paganism. If the green man is not a pagan symbol, but instead a christian one, what is the christian meaning of the green man and how is it different from the pagan one? Eharrigan (talk) 01:53, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Please be aware of our policy on no original research. Your words like "I'd argue that..." will carry little weight here, unless you can back them up with reliable published sources. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:45, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

there's no reliable published source (or any source at all) on the article itself where it states "superficially, the green man would appear to be pagan,", which is what i am taking up issue with. It is incumbent upon whoever wrote this to provide sourcing. My saying "I argue" is in refutation to an unsubstantiated claim on this article, a claim which categorically contradicts the pagan nature of the green man symbol. My claim that the green man is pagan, regardless of its appearance in churches, is a claim that does not need to be sourced, as it is already evidenced by a number of other sources already linked in the article e.g. 2, 3, and 5. Eharrigan (talk) 18:52, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Article remains a mess...

since I first started editing it 3 years ago, and it needs clean up, but not whole scale reversal of referenced content with mere addition of a single new (even if helpful) ref. Wuerzele (talk) 21:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The Green man is not a mythological figure, but an architectural motif. Folklorists apparently agree on this point [1]. If academics agree that the green man is not a mythological figure, why then include comparisons to clearly unrelated mythological figures from wildly different cultural contexts as if he is one? Wikipedia:Verifiability#Verifiability_does_not_guarantee_inclusion. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree the green man is not a mythological figure and I think that this could be carved out more clearly, as you suggest Hemiauchenia. People come to this article with all the folklore in mind, so it would be good to mention all the unrelated (Jack in the green etc) and speculative things and say they are unrelated! Other articles do this too.--Wuerzele (talk) 22:14, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The oxfordreference you quoted above, by the way, is completely focused on Britain; yet the architectural motif of a foliated head is found in churches all over Europe, even though the term "green man" does not exist there (e.g. German : https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blattmaske). Also, the term green man hasnt experienced a 20th century revival outside Britain. At least I am not aware of publications about it outside Britain. So this could be carved out here as well. --Wuerzele (talk) 22:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree, but the problem is that by its very nature the term "Green Man" is focused on foliate heads as they exist in British architecture, though the phenomenon of foliate heads is obviously not unique to Britain. This paper looks like a useful reference.[2] Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:08, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

What about a WP:SPLIT? This article about the architectural motif, a new article about representations of mythical woodland-dwellers from all countries and periods of history.--AntientNestor (talk) 07:03, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

{{Split}} template placed at top of article to gather wider opinions.--AntientNestor (talk) 10:08, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I think it would inherently be a WP:SYNTH problem as the idea of the "green man" being a mythological figure is rejected by scholars. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:28, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

New proposals for the title, other than the one I suggested in the {{Split}} template, very welcome.--AntientNestor (talk) 06:33, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

OK, I'm making a start in the next week or so. Going with Green man (spirit of nature) unless anyone's got a better idea. As this article is only about the architectural symbol, it needs doing.--AntientNestor (talk) 15:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Done--AntientNestor (talk) 15:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)