Talk:Goat/Archive 1

Popular Culture - edits

The reference to American vernacular was edited in such a fashion that its original meaning was lost. The title of "goat" is not a stigma like "albatross" in classic literature, rather it is given through simple observation of a competitive game. The term began in a sports context, but as with many such terms, has transferred into mainstream culture. I edited the reference to try to keep both the original and modified meanings. Stringbean 16:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed comment per WP:BLP

To begin with this information is not important to gain an understanding of goats in general. This article is about goats, not about rumors about people and goats.

Now to the issues about a living person. WP:BLP says:

"Biographical material must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality and avoiding original research, particularly if it is contentious."

The source for this information is a blog. It is not a reliable secondary source of information. WP:BLP goes on to state:

"Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives."

This information is sensationalist and if this material is in the article, wikipedia is spreading unsubstantiated rumors about a living person.

WP:BLP also states:

"Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space."

As such I am removing the rumor from this page as well. If you have any concerns about this please ask the question on the BLP noticeboard. Jons63 (talk) 20:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

some things that may be worth mentioning:

• I vaguely remember reading about how goats rip grass up rather than eat just the top like sheep -- thus they can accelerate soil erosion in areas succeptible to it

Goats are browsers, not grazers. They prefer to eat things high up, like leaves. If they have a choice, they will eat the tops of tall grass and bushes. If there is nothing to eat, they will pluck the grass out of the soil. But it is not their preference and not their nature.

• on the subject of children as goat herds: there are many such in European fiction (fables such as "the boy who cried wolf", Heidi, etc)
• Goats do not eat everything. In fact, they are extremely fastidious animals who prefer to browse woody shrubs and trees rather than grass. They will not eat food that has been contaminated by their own droppings, and they will become very dehydrated rather than drink water that has been fouled. This choosiness works to their benefit as they are less susceptible to parasites when given the opportunity to eat their preferred diet.

They sniff at every morsel of food before eating it. They are so fastidious that they will not eat food that has been nibbled at by one of their fellow herd members, unless, of course, the food is something particularly delicious, such as papaya leaf. If food is plentiful, they will pick a little here, and a little there. They will not graze in one spot. This is no doubt a mechanism that allows them to avoid parasite infestation.

• Goats are not the cause of erosion and wastelands unless overgrazed and managed improperly. This is the case with any livestock; but goats, because they will eat shrubs and graze areas inhospitable to other livestock, and are the poor man's cow in many countries, are overgrazed more often in land that is already marginal and vulnerable to erosion.

Goat homosexuality

Is it true that a lot of goats are homosexual? yes it is true. i find this very offensive as i am homosexual

Male goats will become homosexual if they do not have an opportunity to encounter a female before their first year. The others will become bisexual if kept in a herd of exclusively male goats. When rutting, a herd of male goats may be seen mounting eachother in series, or mounting another who is preparing to butt another. It's quite an orgy.

I'm not sure, but I read in the news that 1 in ten rams(sheep) would rather mount other rams. None of my goats are homosexual PhotoNikonMan 19:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

kudzu

"or such plants as kudzu unless facing starvation." -- kudzu seems to say this plant is found in the US and Japan. In which case I don't think it's terribly relevant to mention it here, especially as it doesn't say why goats shouldn't eat it. -- Tarquin 14:50, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's relevant because kudzu is a highly invasive and noxious weed in the US, and goats are sometimes used to control it. The use of goats as an alternative to herbicides is increasing and (IMHO) noteworthy. I think the statement that goats will only eat kudzu when faced with starvation is incorrect, but I'm no expert. Toiyabe 22:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

It is also said that one of the reasons kudzu was introduced to the USA was to feed cattle. I think goats would like it too. Steve Dufour 22:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

It says even humans can eat it!!!Steve Dufour 22:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Livestock

Anyone interested in improving the content of the agricultural information on Wikipedia, here is your opportunity. Livestock has been nominated as a Collaboration of the Week. H2O 23:49, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Capitalization

Why is 'Goat' capitalized in the title? 140.247.60.149 18:38, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Goat Milk Soap is excellent. In fact many skin care products are based on goat's milk.

Information overlap and organization

In the next few days I will probably do some work with the goat and domestic goat articles. There's some information in each that belongs in the other (such as talk about the Zodiac sign, etc.), and both of the articles need a going over for organization and grammatical business. I'm just giving everybody a heads up. --Krishva 06:35, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

pet goats?

There doesn't seem to be much information on pet goats here, despite the fact thats clearly an important part of this topic. Even the president of the united states likes pet goats, often prefering to read about them instead of paying attention to other events :) Damburger 11:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Horns

Why nothing on horns?--Light current 00:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment moved from article

At the end of the 'Reproduction' section User:Ugotmailkeenan wrote: 'Why in the world is the section on reproduction the longest? This shows what kind of people edit these pages.' Edward 09:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

picture of goat

The picture of the start of the article is really cool, is taht a painting or photo? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.174.172.103 (talk) 14:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

When you click on a picture you get to see it larger size and also see some information on it. This is a photo. I agree it is cool. It has a remarkable 3-D effect. Steve Dufour 22:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Do we really need the goat eating the placenta picture? That's pretty heinous

Please remember to sign your posts with four tildes (~). Heinous or not, the image is informative and encyclopedic. Also, please note that Wikipedia is not censored, for taste or otherwise. VanTucky 22:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Goats in folklore

If wise men wore beards, then would goats be prophets? Must all goats wear beards in order to become prophets? 72.194.116.63 21:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC) Vahe Demirjian 13.48 22 February 2007

My goats have beards, but I doubt that goats are prophets, and that goats with beards are smater than ones without seems illogical. Is it true that no-one knows the use of a goat's "toggles" or why they might be there. Also, nice to see you signed your name. PhotoNikonMan 16:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Military goats

Perhaps some mention should be made of army goats, used as regimental mascots

Army goats?

Yes, there are at least three, the one for the US Navy Academy, (Bill the Goat), the one for the Royal Welsh (William Windsor) and the one for the The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment (the Derby Ram) --Marcika (talk) 11:02, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Goat breeds

Under the goat breeds heading, they are said to fall under four catagories, and seven are listed. Also, the wild goats listed (in the domestic goat article!) aren't goats (only the kri-kri is of the same species), so their being listed as so may be somewhat misleading.

About.com

I think that it's actively absurd that someone keeps deleting a link to About.com with the charge that the link is spam. About.com's own articles are generally quite reliable. They are ad-supported, but so are the magazine and newspapers to which we link. —SlamDiego_←T 12:17, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I'm not the guy doing the deleting, but just putting up a link to About.com is like putting up a link to any other search engine - it's not very specific. If there is a relevent, and documented, About.com article that you want to link to, I don't see any problem, but just linking to About so someone can search is a stretch.Bob98133 14:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The link is very specific. It's to

McLeod, Lianne; “Goats as Pets”

(I didn't introduce the link.) —SlamDiego_←T 14:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, OK - sorry. I thought someone was just posting a link to about.com which wouldn't make sense. Otherwise I agree with you that a link to an article on about.com should be OK. Bob98133 14:39, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

No need to apologize. I take your original response as indicating that I needed to be clearer; I doubt that you were the only person who would have wondered if I were referring to a “Search BlahBlahBlah.com!” link. —SlamDiego_←T 15:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Chamois is not goat

I propose to delete chamois from the list of wild goats. Although chamois is considered as goat-like species and it is phylogenetically very related to goat, it is different genus: Chamois (Rupicapra rupicapra) versus domestic goat (Capra hircus).--Flukeboy 04:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

gallery

Wikipedia is not an image gallery. An article gallery is unnecessary when all the subjects of the gallery (males, females, adults, young, different breeds) are covered in the article. A gallery of different breeds or types is also superflous, those image should be in their respective articles. VanTucky ^(talk) 18:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Cyan goats

Cyan? Seriously? If so, I want pictures. This I have to see. 86.137.77.251 03:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC) this is no joke. this stuff is for real —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.176.2 (talk) 13:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Goats in Mythology

Is the appearance of goats in Mythology significant enough to warrant a section on them? (pulled Thor's chariot, were the providers of milk to baby Zeus etc...) Just another guy trying to be a Chemical Engineer, Nanobiotechnologist, and Mathematician 00:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

ADGA recognition

I've removed the ADGA recognition "*" for dairy goat breeds. Every major country has a goat registry, we can't list them all (and I happen to be in ADGA, so any WP:COI would tend the other way for me). --Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 05:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with removing the mention. It's just one more piece of U.S.-centrism for people to criticize us on. VanTucky ^Talk 05:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

For the same reasons I decided to Be Bold and merged [[Nubian_goat]] into Anglo-Nubian and tried to eliminate a lot of ADGA stuff there. There's still the breed standard listed, but I may remove that as well once I can get a good breed description from Ensminger or the like. I'm sure all the other breeds, particularly the dairy breeds and dairy goat too, I'll take a look when I get a chance.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 15:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Placenta eating picture

The picture of the goat eating its placenta seems a little out of place. Many mammals (all ruminants as far as I know) do this and they don't always do it. Moreover, that's the only picture in a section on reproduction - there should be a picture of a goat giving birth or within a few minutes of kidding, or even a picture of goats mating, not this picture. Anyone got a better picture?--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 01:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

What kind of pervert would want to watch goats mating!?!? Craobh sidhe (talk) 16:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Goat terminology

Nanny vs Doe and Billy vs Buck

I just reverted edits where an editor had deleted the term "buck" and "doe" from the terminology here and on at least one breed page and demanded references.

Go to www.dictionary.com and search the term "Buck" then search the term "Billy". Hint: the second will not even list in a definition of "male goat" (though you will if you search the term "billy-goat".

Just to make sure I wasn't using an Americanism, I looked for a British site. Most just say "male" or "sire" or "female" or "dam", I did not find the terms "Billy" or "Nanny" on any British goat breed sites, though I must admit I did not check every one. This site uses the term "Billy" one time, the term "Buck" one time, the term "Nanny" zero times, the term "Doe" several times (I didn't count, at least 5 I think) [1]. In the States breeders never use the terms "billy" and "nanny".

Most texts I've read on goats, including academic and non-US ones, use the terms Doe and Buck exclusively (some include a a short explanation at the beginning that Billy-goat and Nanny-goat are somewhat coarse and arcane terms for goats). This website, not academic but highly respected for dairy information, provides basically the same info. [2]. Since the dictionary includes this definition, it is entirely unnecessary for it to be cited. I don't have any of my texts handy, but I'll take a look and include more if necessary.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 23:01, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Australia uses doe and buck Charles Esson (talk) 07:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC).

Does and Bucks??

I have certinly never heard the deer terminology of does and bucks applied to goats. I wonder is this perhaps a terminology used only in US English. I noticed something similar in that for some species of deer North Americans call bucks (even stags) and does bulls and cows. Is there a widespread difference in terminology between US and Commonwealth English in this regard? Do you have a US dictionary handy to confirm the usage?Billlion (talk) 23:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Here are some dictionary quotes for doe (n)

1. a female fallow deer, reindeer, hare, or rabbit. The Oxford American Dictionary of Current English
2. a female roe or fallow deer or reindeer. The Concise Oxford English Dictionary
3. a female deer. • a female of certain other animal species, such as hare, rabbit, rat, ferret, or kangaroo.,The New Oxford American Dictionary
4. a female deer, caribou, hare, or rabbit. The Canadian Oxford Dictionary

No mention of use for goats. Pretty much the same for Buck (n). However, eg

goat → noun 1. a herd of goats billy (goat), nanny (goat), goat noun" The Oxford Paperback Thesaurus. Ed. Maurice Waite. Oxford University Press, 2006. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. 16 November 2007 [3] Billlion (talk) 23:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

We were editing at the same time. Perhaps the point is that goat breeders use a rather specialised terminology from common usage. Certainly no dictionary I have access to supports this useage. Is it very recent, perhaps? Billlion (talk) 23:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I found this discusion on Word-detective] "I don't know why anyone would shun the names "billy" and "nanny" in favor of the drab "buck" and "doe" (which can refer to the males and females of many species, including rabbits...", and "..I think it's probably a result of the dairy goat industry's quest for respectability. ..". this is in answer to a farmer who says "as I can only remember them being referred to as "billys" and "nannies" in Texas.". Personally tend to go with the theory that most of the goat "fan" sites in have gone with a dairy industry rebranding decision to change the terminology. And they are appear disproportionately on the internet. As far as I can tell the change has not yet appeared in dictionaries.Billlion (talk) 23:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Did you look at the reference above, which was not a dairy specific site (though it was a dairy specific article) and the dictionary.com search which does not produce "Billy = Male Goat" at all but does give a definition for "Buck = Male Goat".--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 03:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Also please see British Agriculture: Texts for the Zoo-Archaeologist. This academic work does not use the words "Billy" or "Nanny" but uses the words "Buck" and "Doe" exclusively. The work is not from the dairy industry (and it's not specific to goats nor dairy animals) nor is it from North America (the author is with a Portuguese institution).--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 04:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Almost all of the modern books I can find on goat keeping in print in the U.S. prefer the terms doe and buck. This includes a large proportion of books written by farmers, not agro industry. I can provide a complete list if necessary. While it might be more colloquially popular to say billy and nanny, Wikipedia relies ultimately on the facts as verified by reliable, published sources, and the majority of sources use doe and buck. VanTucky ^Talk 04:39, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like someone should present this evidence to the Oxford English Dictionary so that they can update the next edition. How about changing the article to something like "in common usage the terms billy goat and nanny goat are most widely used and this usage is reflected in most dictionaries (references), however in agricultural spheres the terminology doe and buck is used almost exclusively (references)"? However perhaps it actually the fact that the common useage is also different in US English fro Commonwealth English?Billlion (talk) 09:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I just looked up the reference British Agriculture: Texts for the Zoo-Archaeologist and it supports "Buck goat" as an archaic usage as the quote is from 1680. This agrees with the OED's etymology. Note also that many cases where American usage differs from British (or Commonwealth) usage and the American usage is corresponds to the 17th C English usage. Eg broil, gotten, herb (with the h aspirated) are all archaic in England. See American and British English differences.

By the way dictionary.com gives [4] billy goat

–noun 1. a male goat. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006., similarly nanny goat goat. So again this supports what I said above. Doug did you have a different entry in mind? The buck entry only mentions goat in the etymology (again archaic). And doe says nothing on goats. Billlion (talk) 09:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at the very first entry for buck on Dictionary.com. Yes there is an entry for "billy goat" but there is no relevant entry for "billy.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 21:27, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

UK goat breeding sites

So a quick google turned up

1. An FAQ on the English Goat Breeders association "Generally speaking a height of around 1400mm (4'6") is needed to prevent animals from jumping out, although it has been known for this height to be cleared by a billy when there are nannies the other side and vice versa!!". A search of this site [5] for nanny gives two hits, billy once, buck and doe zero.
2. The British Goat Society [6], one mention of billy goats, [7], one of nanny, zero buck, zero doe. So the main goat societies only occasionally refer to billy goats and nanny goats but never to bucks and does.

However there are a few small sites dedicated to specific breeds.

1. British Boer goat society[8], Buck 3, doe 3, billy zero, nanny zero. Just as many times it uses male instead of buck, and it is a small site.
2. British Angora Goat Society [9], uses none of the words bill nanny or buck (or their plurals), but uses the word doe three times. [10] again a small site.

A slightly wider search of sites with uk top level domains (and note that many uk specific sites use .com or .org TLDs), for "nanny goat", [11] 618 hits, "billy goat" [12] 31,300 (but the title of the story [[Three Billy Goats Gruff] obviously has some effect here, so of these 27,900 do not contain gruff. It is harder to do searches for uk sites in which buck and doe refer to goats, rather than deer, rabbits etc. Even some pages with goat and doe might easily refer to several different animals. I searched for "buck goat" [13] 114 and "doe goat" [14] 114, obviously and underestimate of the number of times doe and buck refer to goats on uk pages, but proving at least that the terms are used.

I think the overall conclusion that this support is that the common British English terms most widely used are nanny goat and billy goat, and that among professional agricultural and amateur goat enthusiasts, both terminologies are in use but without clear evidence of one being dominant.

The English usage (at least British English) for names especially sex specific names of farm animals is quite complex. For example among all the names for pigs, male female and collectively, pretty much all non-specialists in the UK presented with a picture of a pig and asked what it was would say "pig", but in historical terms the use of this word is quite recent, swine, hog, boar and sow all being much older words, and much more likely to be used by farmers (and the rural population with a close connection to farming). To the urban population now cows is practically synonym for cattle. I am sure that everyone in the UK who has no specific contact with goat enthusiasts or professionals uses the words nanny goat and billy goat. Moreover if they look in any British English dictionary I can find (specifically including the authoritative OED) this will confirm that they are correct in this usage). I'd be interested in the similar question in the US. Would Webster's be your most authoritative dictionary? Does it support the buck/doe useage?Billlion (talk) 15:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

OED

I was able to get on line to a more detailed edition of the OED. It says "Buck (n) 1 The male of several animals. The he-goat. Obs. exc. U.S. Phrase, to blow the buck's horn: to have his labour for his pains" (this is from the OED 1989), in other word obsolete except in the US. So even if it has regained favour professionally in the UK it must now be regarded as an "Americanism" at least in so far as it has been "reimported" perhaps along with a new-found enthusiasm for goat breeding and farming? As for doe the same edition says "The female of the fallow deer; applied also to the female of allied animals, as the reindeer." no specific mention of goats (but it does mention rabbits). However it is interesting that the same edition lists billy-goat as a "Familiar term for: A male goat.", where as nanny-goat is simply "A female goat" with the first written mention found in 1758 (note that OED first recorded usage is typically long after the word is in current usage, it is just the written evidence the OED have found that has a clearly verified meaning and date). Interestingly the OED also lists he-goat under he- "Male. (Now confined to the lower animals, as he-goat; in 16-18th c. with nouns denoting persons; this is now contemptuous.)", so maybe for the male he-goat was actually more common or "official".

Recap

I won't call this a summary or conclusion, because I don't want to be accused of trying to cut off discussion, but I never suggested that "Billy" and "Nanny" were inappropriate terms in this article. They are there. All I did was restore "Buck" and "Doe". We can work on exactly how to word the explanation. As for Saanen_goat: That's a specialized dairy breed, I'm not so sure that explaining all the possible terms relevant to goats is necessary. But a reference out to the main goat article might be worthwhile. Also, some of the livestock species now have a "terminology" or "etymology" section (I prefer the former), maybe we should consider that here - then breed articles could reference that specific section. If necessary, we could include the fact that in specialized circumstance (esp. among breeders) "sire" and "dam" are commonly used and that "he-goat" and "she-goat" are often used in Britain --Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 21:41, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oh, I see we have an etymology section here too and it does cover that ground, I traverse all the Livestock articles and I forget which ones do and which don't sometimes. Speaking of which, here's my plug to invite you all to Wikipedia:WikiProject Agriculture if you aren't already signed up! ;)--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 21:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I have to admit that following my shock and surprise at the buck/doe terminology in Saanen_goat, which led me to do all the looking up in dictionaries, that the current Etymology section is not too bad. Probably it should be a bit more careful about British (or Commonwealth) v. American useage, and careful that the OED dates are typically a long time after terms were in common spoken use. Also it should site sources, maybe if someone feels like it some of my dictionary quotes above might do as references.Billlion (talk) 16:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposal

At present, Dairy goat is useless stub. Quite a bit of it's content is repeated either from this article or from breed articles. What is not comprises content that in my view violates WP:NOT#HOWTO. Any of the specialized dairy goat content can be merged into a subsection of this article, which needs beefing up anyway. VanTucky ^Talk 00:47, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Good point, I'd tend to agree with you, and I'm a dairy goat breeder so if anything I would like to see the other article be of some purpose, but it's not.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 04:50, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Support Merge Both Articles have a large overlap so it seems to make sense to merge. Sawblade05 ^{(talk to me | my wiki life)} 22:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge as per above. Merenta (talk) 22:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge. “Dairy goat” presently has little unique content. If, sometime downstream, the “Dairy goats” section of “Goat” grows over-large, then “Dairy goat” could be spun-off. —SlamDiego_←T 01:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Considering that there seems to be a consensus to merge, I'm doing so now. VanTucky 03:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Goat milk for infants

'For these reasons, goat milk may be recommended for infants and people who have difficulty digesting cow's milk' there have been cases of infants suffering from malnutrition when given goats milk for extended periods of time. Infants that do not have access to mother's milk should be given formula. I don't have any source for this but the article doesn't either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Craobh sidhe (talk • contribs) 16:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC) 'Yes, well It can be argued that people are not supposed to drink the milk of anything but their mothers and that no other species in the world does so (Or raises and slaughters animals for food) Go Vegan!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.249.80 (talk) 13:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC) eh.. I'm not saying that. I have no problem with people drinking milk (though not very healthy). I'm saying that there is NO substitute for mothers' milk unless specialy formulated. I am not saying milk is bad for you out of any pre-concieved bias or conviction; there have been numerous studies of milk nutrition.

In Religion

Why is there no mention of its prevelance in satanism and occult imagery?♠♦Д narchistPig♥♣ (talk) 02:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

So long as an editor has “reliable sources” and can establish “notability”, he or she should feel free to add such content (in relative proportion to its significance). My best guess is that no one writing the article has felt sufficiently expert and interested. —SlamDiego_←T 10:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

well since i have a little experience in both religions i suppose i could give it a shot...♠♦Д narchistPig♥♣ (talk) 21:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Persona experience isn't necessary or sufficient. You should read the Wikipedia guidelines on “reliable sources”, and provide citations from such. —SlamDiego_←T 22:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

What is this person taking about when it comes to imagery? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.190.81.171 (talk • contribs) 20:20, 14 March 2008

Usage

In referring to the removal of fibre from the coat of domestic animals, isn't the usual past tense shorn? Surely it is a strong verb in this meaning; sheared refers to rivets or something breaking, no? Or is this an American (or other) use i am unaware of? I'm not changing the verb right now, because i'm always open to correction, but i may at some point in the future if i'm not corrected. Cheers, Lindsay 18:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you are right. I'll change it! --Jaysweet (talk) 18:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Sweet; a quick answer. Yeah, i know about being bold, but i try not antagonise if i could well be ignorant of others' usage. Cheers, Lindsay 18:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I think you're right that shorn is correct. That's what got done at Domestic sheep. VanTucky 18:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Article Locked -- Please add this correction to etymology section

On at Wikipedia would an article on goats need to be locked...  : |

In the Etymology section, please change this current text:

The Modern English word "goat" comes from the Old English gat which meant "she-goat", and this in turn derived from Proto-Germanic *gaitaz (compare Old Norse and Dutch geit'(meaning' "goat"), German Geiß' ("she-goat") and Gothic gaits, ("goat")) ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *ghaidos meaning "young goat" but also "play" (compare Latin haedus meaning "kid").

To this (adds long-A for Old English, fixes nested parentheses, removes erroneous apostrophes, clarifies Latin meaning which could be confused with children given preceding reference to "play", etc.):

The Modern English word "goat" comes from the Old English gāt which meant "she-goat", and this in turn derived from Proto-Germanic *gaitaz (compare Old Norse and Dutch geit ["goat"], German Geiß ["she-goat"], and Gothic gaits ["goat"]), ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *ghaidos meaning "young goat" but also "play" (compare Latin haedus ["young goat"]).

Note to click the "edit" link for this comment, in order to get the source-code text to copy and past in with links, etc.

Feral goats in Australia

User:Ahtsisab has just added a long section on feral goats in Australia. It is excellent material: well-researched, well-referenced and full of useful encyclopaedic information. However, it seems to me that it makes the goat article very unbalanced, and I think it would be better in a separate article.

It is well meaty enough to make a reasonable article on its own. However, feral goats also occur in many other places in the world, often with similar issues, and so I think it would be best in an article about feral goats more generally (which surprisingly does not exist yet, apart from a short section in Wild goat). I therefore suggest that this material is moved to a new Feral goat article, leaving a "main article" tag and summary here. The summary for this important subject ought to go earlier in the article – I suggest inserting it before "Goat breeds". --Richard New Forest (talk) 16:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

No comments for a couple of weeks, so I have broken out this section into a new Feral goat article, with a "main article" tag. --Richard New Forest (talk) 21:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Chromosome number

why nothing on the number of chromosome of goats ( 60), which is the difference with the sheep ( 54,56,58 )? It exist hybrid with 57 and also chimere --bc789 (talk) 06:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Goat Life Expectancy

I just looked through the entire goat article and all the milking breed sub-articles and could not find a single mention of the natural life expectancy of any of them. Do we really not know how old these goat breeds live to be if not culled? I've read in other places wildly different numbers (between 10 years and 30!). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thunksalot (talk • contribs)

As with dogs, the life-span of goats will differ across breeds. A typical domestic goat would probably live for about 25 years if as much care were given to it as is given to a well-treated dog. But, certainly, the article would be better if life-expectancies were reported, drawing upon “reliable sources”. —12.72.72.194 (talk) 06:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Article Locked -- please make a few miscellaneous corrections

HISTORY SECTION

"cultures and tribes" -- the word "culture" applies to any human group including those with tribal structures, change to just "cultures".

ANATOMY SECTION

"2 horns" to "two horns"

REPRODUCTION SECTION

remove extra line space between paragraphs

DIET

Rework talky and awkward first few sentences. Use "has reputation for" not "is reputed" and clarify under what conditions (of availability) it eats what.

MILK BUTTER AND CHEESE SECTION

Clarify "allergic" to cow's milk (vs casein, lactose intolerance, etc -- what component of cow's milk?). Emphasis that goat's milk has the same type and amount of lactose as cow's milk -- very common currently for goat's milk advocates to claim falsely that it can be (better) tolerated by lactose intolerant individuals vs. cow's milk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.144.244 (talk) 09:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

BILLIONS OF PEOPLES' ONLY SOURCE OF RED MEAT

Source: http://www.lamorindawinesociety.com/kitchen/Meat/index.html#Chevon

G murder (talk) 22:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)G_Murder

MEXICO

Birria de chivo is stewed goat meat and is a common Sunday dish in Mexico and in Mexican restaurants in California. Again, same source as above. Also, consider adding this as an external link or taking the information from it as it has a brief discussion of chevon as food.

Source: http://www.lamorindawinesociety.com/kitchen/Meat/index.html#Chevon

G murder (talk) 22:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)G_Murder

Image of a kid

A domestic goat kid in a field of capeweed

I took this image which I reckon is pretty nice and was wondering if people thought it had a place in the article? --Fir0002 06:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

i think that thats an excellent picture, you should put it in the article--Jac16888 (talk) 00:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Chicken feed

An edit concerning goats and chicken feed was promptly reverted as vandalism. But, while not properly sourced, and written too informally, it wasn't vandalism. A quick googling shows that the claim about chicken feed is at least part of the folk-wisdom of goat owners, and I'll bet that a “reliable source” can be found. —SlamDiego_←T 15:32, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

You're right, it wasn't vandalism, and ought not to have been reverted as such. However, it's not really clear what is being said, and as you say the material is unreferenced. Presumably "chicken scratch" is what I would (in the UK) call poultry feed or perhaps layers' mash. It may well be that this is unsuitable for goats, and there are a number of possible reasons for that. There could be trace minerals which goats don't need (some supplement blocks for cattle say "do not feed to sheep" for this reason); layers' mash has a lot of calcium which may be too much for goats. There could be additives such as antibiotics (in growers' feed) which are not approved or appropriate for goats. Or it's the general type of feed itself – or of course it's a goat-keepers' myth. I don't think we should include it until we know which of these alternatives it is and have a reference (and it ought to be a proper academic one, to avoid repeating a goat-keepers' myth, if it is that). Richard New Forest (talk) 18:34, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I acknowledge all of that. —SlamDiego_←T 08:19, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

goats kick?

Can goats kick? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.244.189.113 (talk) 13:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes Jons63 (talk) 13:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Soccer is a possibility, but a goat would be a poor choice for American football. —SlamDiego_←T 00:58, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

feed the goat and he will score! Totnesmartin (talk) 19:47, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Error

There is an issue with when goats were first domesticated. Article states 10000 years ago, which is 8000BC as first evidence of domestication. Then in the next sentence, it states that they were domesticated in 9500BC in Indian Subcontinent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.99.120 (talk • contribs)

Well, actually, your reading of the article is questionable, but the wording was at best ambiguous, and there was a misstatement of what the associated reference reported. I have therefore altered the manner of expression and corrected the claim that goats were first domesticated in Iran roughly 10K years ago to a claim that they were domesticated there at least 10K years ago. —SlamDiego_←T 18:54, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

"Proto-Indo European" nonsense

The entry claims the word "goat" ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *ghaidos meaning "young goat". I am simply amazed to read about this non-attested word from a non-attested language. Here is a little tidbit of information that may interest readers. The word for "young goat" in Hebrew is "g'di" (this is attested in Biblical Hebrew, e.g. Genesis 38.20), and in Aramaic it is "gadya". These are ancient Semitic languages, and I find it very hard to believe that such ancient sources as the Bible adopted the word from "Proto Indo European". ---Jacob Davidson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 23:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

You're quite welcome to disagree with “reliable sources” and to embrace or develop contrary theories for purposes outside of Wikipedia. This would include your rejection of the notion that the Hebrew Bible (whose composition academics tend to date from about 950 BCE) could plausibly have words derived from Proto-Indo-European (typically dated to the 4th millennium BCE or earlier). However, Wikipedia articles and their talk pages are not the place to spin-out such theories. —SlamDiego_←T 00:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Billy the goat

If this is relevant to goats, please include it in the text of the article with a reference. It is useless as a See Also item since it doesn't add anything to article about goats.Bob98133 (talk) 21:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Goat/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Poorly organized, list in the middle of the article breaks up the text unnecessarily, few citations.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 17:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC) URL CHANGE: AOL has announced that it will no longer be hosting web pages after October 31, 2008. There is a link to one of my web pages at the very bottom of the External Links. The new URL for my Lincoln boys goats page is now http://home.att.net/~rjnorton/Lincoln33.html 67.72.98.85 (talk) 14:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)Roger Norton, Webmaster, Abraham Lincoln Research Site

Substituted at 21:21, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Milk, butter and cheese

The sentence 'It is also said that "formula derived from goat's milk is unsuitable for babies who are lactose intolerant as it contains levels of lactose similar to cow's-milk-based infant formulae."[15]' is out of place in the paragraph about milk production. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.156.31 (talk) 20:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

This infomration is also incorrect.

Many people with cow milk allergies can drink goat milk because it contains a different kind of protein. Goat milk has 13% less lactose than cow milk, and 41% less than human milk.

quoted from Ontario Goat Milk Producers' Associationl santry (talk) 12:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Intelligence?

I see a number of claims about goat intelligence (including phrases like 'very intelligent'), but no sources for the claims. I've seen contradicting claims about goat intelligence and trainability elsewhere. Does anyone have any goat-related studies they can cite? -Anonymous 18 November 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.107.0.70 (talk) 01:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Editing to the Goat breeds section

I believe it would greatly improve navigation through the goat breeds to provide a statement under the "Goat breeds" section in this article which states "For a more complete listing of goat breeds see Category:Goat breeds." Please provide this linkage between the two websites as this would make navigation much simpler. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sicilianu101 (talk • contribs)

 Done DMacks (talk) 23:25, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Easy Grammar

Under the feral goat section it ought to be "...are a severe problem in Australia" rather than "are severe problem in Australia." I don't have permission to edit. --Spfmalloy (talk) 17:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done Euryalus (talk) 21:58, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

plus 'cabrito' is the word for a kid goat not only in spanish, but also in portuguese (check a translator)

Correcting Misinformation

• Many people with cow milk allergies can drink goat milk because it contains a different kind of protein.

• Goat milk has 13% less lactose than cow milk, and 41% less than human milk.

• The milk-fat particles are small, making goat milk very easy to digest. Babies do extremely well on goat milk formulas with folic acid supplements, when a mother does not nurse or can not nurse her own baby .

• Goat milk has superior ease of digestion and buffering properties, making it an ideal convalescent diet for people with digestive upsets or ulcers.

• Goat milk fatty acids have a unique metabolic ability to limit cholesterol deposits in body tissues. [2% Goat Milk has 0% cholesterol]

• Compared to cow's milk, goat milk has similar amounts of protein, fat, iron, vitamin C and vitamin D. Goat milk has more natural vitamin A, more vitamin B and less lactose. Ontario Goat Milk Producers' Associationl santry (talk) 13:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

What Size are Goats?

I can't find anything in the article about their height/weight. Shouldn't this be covered in the Anatomy section? TIA.

Icenine378 (talk) 22:40, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

•  Done Done.Kerani (talk) 21:09, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

removed disputed/poor grammar paragraph

I removed the following - not worth correcting if disputed (and I find it incredible, as well):

This information is disputedOntario Goat Milk Producers' Association as it has been found that

many people with cow milk allergies can drink goat milk because it contains a different kind of protein. Goat milk has 13% less lactose than cow milk, and 41% less than human milk. The milk-fat particles are small, making goat milk very easy to digest. Babies do extremely well on goat milk formulas with folic acid supplements, when a mother does not nurse or can not nurse her own baby. Goat milk has superior ease of digestion and buffering properties, making it an ideal convalescent diet for people with digestive upsets or ulcers. Goat milk fatty acids have a unique metabolic ability to limit cholesterol deposits in body tissues. 2% Goat Milk has 0% cholesterol.

Replace if verifiable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gigemag76 (talk • contribs)

Tin cans

Should there be something that says that, "contrary to common belief, goats do not eat tin cans.", EG in the Diet section? I put something like that there a few months ago, but I can't find it. It most likely was deleted. UNIT A4B1 (talk) 19:54, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

You'll need a source that says that it's a common belief, and that they don't do it. Fences&Windows 23:45, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I found a source from the Texas Dept. of Agriculture just by Googling it. I'm adding it now. Steven Walling 07:17, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

That might belong in a different section actually, as there are a number of popular myths about what goats will eat, as opposed to what they play with (my goats love to play with cans, and a couple can drink beer from a can if they can get to it, but they don't eat the can). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 14:23, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I think a mention of it belongs in the diet section, though the bits about goat's general curiosity definitely belong in a behavior section. Steven Walling 07:19, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Edit request from Kitarr, 16 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Perhaps it's there and somehow I missed it, but if not something along the following should be added for caution feeding infants:

Goat's milk is not recommended for infants due to inadequate quantities of iron, folate, vitamins C and D, thiamin, niacin, vitamin B6, and pantothenic acid for an infant's needs. Although some brands are fortified with D and folate, others are not. Furthermore, the renal solute load (even higher than bovine milk) can place stress on an infant's kidneys. Furthermore, this milk can has been found to cause a dangerous level of metabolic acidosis when fed to infants in the first month of life.

Source: USDA formula guidelines http://www.nal.usda.gov/wicworks/Topics/FG/Chapter4_InfantFormulaFeeding.pdf

Kitarr (talk) 22:46, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• Done I added this to the article. —Mikemoral♪♫ 02:25, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Goat Milk Advocates, Don't let your feathers get ruffled over the USDA

Many corporations have interest regarding the production of cow's milk, and, all the panic mongering behind goat milk COULD be due to the dairy farmer's being genuinely scared Goat milk is better. Infant mortality rates are in fact lower in the middle east than they are here in the west in the wealthier sections of the near east, moroever Arab women have fed their babies goat milk for centuries. The panic mongering is likely corporate interest, as well as the slander against the product; cow's milk corporations feel threatened by goat milk, so, they demonize it. There is really no need to do that; myself personally I would never eat cereal with goat milk, it would taste disgusting. Also, if I ever get back into protein shakes or meal replacement powders, cow's milk is simply better. It really depends on what you need; goat milk is good for drinking, cow's milk is good for cheese. I really wish people would stop being so combative I mean for god's sake its food!

174.27.95.182 (talk)stardingo747 —Preceding undated comment added 00:43, 16 August 2010 (UTC).

I'm not sure if you're actually suggesting an edit or just preaching--but if the former, please see List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate. In fact, the statistics are the opposite of what you suggest. I really don't think it's because of goat's milk that they do far worse in infant mortality, though (even though you seem to be claiming some kind of correlation between the two). Properly prepared goat's milk is great for adults, but leads to dangerous complications in infants who cannot handle the milk properly. Even if (as you suggest) the USDA is in the pocket of dairy farmers, worldwide pediatric organizations are not. Kitarr (talk) 04:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Interesting though this discussion is, talk pages are for discussing changes to the article rather than the article subject itself. If there's anything re goat's milk that is relevant to the article, and reliably sourced, please feel free to add it in. If its likely to be controversial, it might also be helpful to post the propsoed new text here for discussion first. Euryalus (talk) 04:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

symbolism and folklore

I think there could be more on the symbolism and folklore about goats. perhaps about billy goats gruff and Skanderbeg's helmet. 67.176.160.47 (talk) 03:48, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

No information on Wikipedia on Anglo-Nubian goat Breed.

These are milk goats. Why is there no information on this breed here? I would like to see a section in this article of a comprehensive lits of Goat Breeds with detailed pages on each breed. Consider this a solicitation for you goat farmers and breeders of the world to edit Wikipedia. 99.56.160.80 (talk) 18:42, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Why is it not possible to edit the goat article, even when logged in?

I just tried to edit, but next to the "read" button where the "edit" button normally is, was nothing? buffelapa 23 November 2010 —Preceding undated comment added 20:08, 23 November 2010 (UTC).

The article is semi-protected due to a long-term vandalism problem. DMacks (talk) 20:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

goat diet

This article says that alfalfa hay is goats' favorite. While this statement is pretty much accurate, more information could make the statement more useful.

Two types of hay provide food to livestock: legume hay and grass hay. Alfalfa hay is a 'legume' hay that is very rich and wonderful for lactating does. That richness can cause a problem for male goats, especially when fed in a diet with a poor balance between calcium and phosphorous. When a goat's diet contains excess calcium or phosphorus (ideal Ca:P is about 2:1), small precipitates form in the renal system. Excess protein in the diet becomes a mucus that binds precipitates into stones. Because the urinary tubes in male goats are narrower than in females, the stones can cause blockage, especially in wethers (neutered males) which have the most narrow renal passages.

Timothy hay and other 'grass' hays are less rich and, while a little less palatable to goats than alfalfa, are better choices for male goats. Similarly, high protein (16%) grain mixes, while necessary for pregnant and lactating does, will cement calcium and phosphorus particulates into stones in male goats. As a result, lower protein grain mixes (10%) are better for bucks and wethers (and does that are not pregnant or lactating).

This information comes from several sources that I rely on as a goat keeper:

The Goat Keeper's Veterinary Book, 4th ed., Peter Dunn (BVSc, MRCVS), Old Pond Publishing, Ipswich, UK, 2007 ISBN:987-1-903366-92-2

Diet for Wethers: A Guide to Feeding Your Wether for Health and Longevity, Carolyn Eddy, Eagle Creek Pack Goats, Estacada, OR, 2001 ISBN:0-9677097-1-7

The Animal Nutritionist at F. M. Brown Feeds in Fleetwood, PA, email exchanges in 2009

Dr. Dickerson, veterinarian in the practice of Dennis Hoshall in Oley, PA, conversation during farm visit in 2009

Storey's Guide to Raising Dairy Goats, Jerry Belanger, Storey Publishing, Adams MA, 2001, ISBN:978-1-58017-259-2

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tillspadehoe (talk • contribs) 22:20, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Is there any substantiation to the statement that silage is not good for goats? Kerani (talk) 19:24, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Husbandry, Behavior, NPOV

Added information on general goat behavior vs sheep, plus a new section under goat agriculture for 'Husbandry' and one for 'Worldwide Goat Statistics'. These new sections are aimed at increasing the world-wide span of the article. (More references to come.) My intent is to further expand notes on international goat husbandry practices, as well as adding international data where applicable. Suggestions & comments welcome. Kerani (talk) 22:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

goats and kudzou

Will goats eat kudzou plants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.130.122.106 (talk) 01:00, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

•  Done Information now included under 'Diet"Kerani (talk) 21:19, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Error in the "Anatomy and health" section

"Because goats' irises are usually pale, the pupils are much more visible than in animals with horizontal pupils...."

Since goats have horizontal pupils, it doesn't make sense to say that their pupils are more visible than the pupils of animals that have horizontal pupils...PrintedScholar (talk) 17:21, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

The rest of the sentence reveals that it's not in fact talking of all other animals that have horizontal pupils, but only those which have dark irises as well. I've re-worded it to make it clearer. Richard New Forest (talk) 12:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

This sentence is deeply problematic: "Goats have horizontal, slit-shaped pupils, an adaptation which increases peripheral depth perception." The reference is from 1907 discussing a theoretical explanation of feline pupils as improving depth perception, but does not mention goats. And goats do not appear to posess depth perception: "there is no behavioural evidence of stereopsis in sheep or goats..." [15] (Binocular Vision and Stereopsis By Ian P. Howard, Brian J. Rogers, p 657). I've deleted the offending phrase. Olawlor (talk) 06:20, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Grooming habits

Do goats groom themselves in the same way that dogs do? That is, can they sit down and nuzzle their fur, and use their teeth to nip off what fleas chance to come their way? Or do they ever groom themselves by sitting first, and using a back leg? Do they prefer to groom themselves without sitting down? My apologies if these questions sound stupid, but I have been wondering about this for some time now, and nobody seems to have answered it yet. So, does anybody have any still shots (or better yet, footage) of goats using a back leg to scratch an itch? 216.99.198.125 (talk) 05:47, 6 December 2011 (UTC) 216.99.198.125 (talk) 05:49, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not all that familiar with goats, but as far as I know they groom in the same way as sheep, cattle and horses. These nibble and lick the parts they can reach, and will scratch at their heads with a hind leg – however, unlike a dog or cat they will normally remain standing, and do not use their forelegs. They will also rub themselves on objects such as fences or branches (you can even get special back-scrubbing brushes to bolt to the wall of your cow-shed). It's noticeable on our own cattle and sheep that ticks are mainly found on the parts they cannot reach, so they must be successful in grooming them off elsewhere. Hoofed animals can be amazingly delicate with their hind legs – a cow's enormous foot can kick you into the next county – or carefully scratch her eylid. Horses often groom each other, and cattle will also do so sometimes, but I've not seen adult sheep doing this (though all mothers lick their babies). Not sure about adult goats. Cattle and horses also use their tails to switch at flies, often very accurately; goats' tails are too short for this, and those sheep that have long tails cannot control them well enough (wild sheep have short tails). They can all twitch their skins to shake off flies, but only on certain areas of the body.

Incidentally, hoofed animals do not usually have fleas, as they do not have regular dens where the fleas could breed – they can however have ticks, lice, mites, biting flies and many other ectoparasites. Richard New Forest (talk) 12:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Duplicated sentence

The sentence beginning with "Unlike cattle, goats have not been..." under Anatomy is repeated as a paragraph in the Reproduction section. I can't edit protected pages 50.78.193.62 (talk) 15:03, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Goats Milk and Infant nutrition

Goats Milk Usage in Infant Formulas

Much has been written on this topic but the latest scientific opinion from EFSA supports the use of Goats milk as a source of protein in Infant formula.

Following an extensive study the EFSA has ruled that Goats milk is a suitable source of protein in infant formula milk.

On the latest evidence from the European Food Standards Agency ( EFSA Panel on Dietetic Products, Nutrition and Allergies. Scientific Opinion on the suitability of goat milk protein as a source of protein in infant formulae and in follow-on formulae. EFSA Journal 2012;10(3):2603. [18 pp.]. doi:10.2903/j.efsa.2012.2603. Available online: www.efsa.europa.eu/efsajournal) Goat milk has been found to be an acceptable source of protein in infant formula milk.

The idea that Goat milk formula is unsuitable for babies is misleading. Goats milk alone, as is the case with cows milk alone, IS NOT suitable for infants but formulas that meet the regulatory requirements  are suitable.

Packofrice (talk) 09:48, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Goats Milk and Infant nutrition

Goats Milk Usage in Infant Formulas

Much has been written on this topic but the latest scientific opinion from EFSA supports the use of Goats milk as a source of protein in Infant formula.

Following an extensive study the EFSA has ruled that Goats milk is a suitable source of protein in infant formula milk.

On the latest evidence from the European Food Standards Agency ( EFSA Panel on Dietetic Products, Nutrition and Allergies. Scientific Opinion on the suitability of goat milk protein as a source of protein in infant formulae and in follow-on formulae. EFSA Journal 2012;10(3):2603. [18 pp.]. doi:10.2903/j.efsa.2012.2603. Available online: www.efsa.europa.eu/efsajournal) Goat milk has been found to be an acceptable source of protein in infant formula milk.

The idea that Goat milk formula is unsuitable for babies is misleading. Goats milk alone, as is the case with cows milk alone, IS NOT suitable for infants but formulas that meet the regulatory requirements  are suitable.

Packofrice (talk) 09:49, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Goat milk does not have good reputation and not preferred generally because of goaty odor (smell). But this smell is essential in exploiting goat milk's nutritional value. Goat milk have unique short chain fatty acids namely carpic acid, caprylic acid and caproic acid which are responsible for this smell. These acids have antibacterial and antiviral properties which make it indispensable for human diet especially children whose immune system is weak. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibnester (talk • contribs) 20:12, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Bestiality

Germany has brothels for men to have sex with goats. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2352779/Bestiality-brothels-spreading-Germany-campaigner-claims-abusers-sex-animals-lifestyle-choice.html

81.129.179.188 (talk) 01:36, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Transgenic goats and BioSteel

In 2000, Canadian biotechnology company Nexia successfully produced spider silk protein in transgenic goats that carried the gene for it; (see BioSteel).

Worth a section in this article. --User:Brenont (talk) 19:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

goat suggested correction

In Agriculture: Husbandry, change "As dairy does are milked daily" To "As dairy goats are milked daily"

Because it's an obvious typographical error.

Suggested by bluespapa. Bluespapa (talk) 17:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done:. This is not an error. A female goat is a doe, so it is correct to say the doe is milked daily. RudolfRed (talk) 18:19, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Goat & Wild goat

Please, bring the articles in line with taxonomy:

Was:

• Capra aegagrus — Wild goat
  • Capra aegagrus hircus — Goat
  • Capra aegagrus aegagrus — Bezoar ibex
  • et alias

Became:

• Capra hircus
  • Capra hircus aegagrus — Bezoar ibex
  • Capra hircus hircus
  • et alias

See Capra hircus — Андрей Бондарь (talk) 10:22, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 March 2014

Lmestre (talk) 10:23, 17 March 2014 (UTC) I am working on a project for school and I am required to make edits to a Wikipedia page. I chose the goat page and gained new information about their History, having goats as pets, behavior and plants that are potentially toxic if consumed. I have done most of my research and noticed that the page is protected.

 Pending -- What specific changes are you wishing to make to the article? Feel free to list them here, and if they are properly sourced I'll be happy to make them for you. Euryalus (talk) 10:47, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

In the second paragraph I wanted to add another common term for goats: Bleat: goat vocalization

Under History I would like to add:

Except for angora, cashmere, and Damascus goats, which descended from the markhor (Capra falconeri), domestic goats are primarily descended from the Bezoar goat (Capra aegagrus). The history of goats in North America began with the arrival of Spanish explorers and settlers in the 1500s. English settlers brought a few goats to New England beginning in the 1600s. These two types accounted for most of the goats found in North America until the time of the Civil War. Importation of several European dairy breeds, including the Nubian, began about 1900.

Goats as Pets

Goats are considered farm livestock. Goats can be trained to walk on a leash and perform many of the tricks, it may even be possible to housebreak a goat. However, because of their high levels of activity, they require considerable space, much like a horse. This is true even of the diminutive Pygmy goat, which packs a lot of bounce in its small frame. Most domesticated goats originated in mountainous areas, and they retain their agility and propensity for climbing and jumping. Thus, you should not be surprised to find that your goat has leapt to the top of your kitchen table, or hopped over the backyard fence. Goats are highly social animals, and easily bored, so it is generally recommended that they be kept with other goats or other farm animals. Simple toys should be made available, such as a soccer ball or basketball, or even an empty (well-rinsed) bottle tied to a stake or fence post.

Toxic Plants

The following common plants, shrubs and trees are known to be poisonous to goats: azalea, avocado, boobialla, comphor laurel, elm, fir, gardenia, green cestrum, hibiscus, laburnum, lantana, lilac, laurel, macadamia, magnolia, noogoora burr, oleander, pine, poison peach, poppies, privet, rhododendron, thus, sally wattle, variegated thistle, yew and all bulb plants. If goats are allowed to browse they sometimes try these plants. Hungry goats are more likely to consume large amounts of poisonous plants, especially when they are moved onto a new area. Although some poisonous plants have an unpleasant taste, others are quite attractive to goats.

Behavior

Neonatal Behavior

Kids usually begin nursing within the first two hours following birth. They butt the udder of their dam to initiate the milk letdown.

Play Behavior

Play is a behavior exhibited in neonates and juveniles. It allows kids to develop muscling, coordination, social skills, and to practice important behaviors such as fleeing, and agonistic behavior in an environment where errors are not fatal.

Agression/Dominance Behavior

Aggression is physical hostility used to determine which goats will gain access to limited resources first. It may be in the form of a head butt, a bite, a kick, or any other form of physical hostility a goat can produce to deter another goat from getting the resource it wants. Dominance is determined as a result of aggression. A dominant animal is one that physically competes with another for resources or status and wins; it has subordinates.

Ritualized Dominance

Goats use ritualized dominance to avoid constant aggression to reestablish dominance. It is passive threats (such as a lowered head to warn of a head butt, or a vocalization) after initial dominance has been established. This is an evolutionary mechanism to conserve energy that would be wasted fighting over food or water resources. Hierarchy is a position in the chain of command that is established by aggression and maintained through ritualized dominance. Not all goats in the hierarchy will fight one another, just those that are close in rank to attempt to overtake a rival. Size, age, and sex, are variables that tend to determine dominance. Goats also will use avoidance to minimize confrontation. Avoidance is simply maintaining a certain distance from a dominant goat, or immediately deferring when confronted.

 Not done Thanks for posting these here, but they cannot be added to the article in this form because they are all directly lifted from copyrighted websites:

• The "History" section from the Smithsonian Institute website, which allows limited non-commercial reuse but only with appropriate crediting; and
• The remainder from Clemson University and the NSW Department of Primary Industries, which have marked the material is copyright.

Copying substantial amounts of material without the permission of the copyright holder from sources that are not public domain or compatibly licensed is likely to be a copyright violation. Even inserting text copied with some changes can be a copyright violation if there's substantial similarity in language or structure. The problems this creates are outlined at Wikipedia:Copyright violations.

The idea of adding some of this additional material is fine, but you would need to rewrite it in your own words. You have the formatting largely correct for the references, and these would also need to remain as the place from which you got the original information.

Hope this is helpful, but please let me know if I haven't properly explained the reason why the edits can't be added in this form. Euryalus (talk) 02:15, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Not all goats have beards; males have larger beards than females

Did a quick searching online, most sources seem to agree that most goat species have beards. Furthermore I often found that male beards tend to be larger than female beards.

Not all goats have beards; males have larger beards than females

Did a quick searching online, most sources seem to agree that most goat species have beards. Furthermore I often found that male beards tend to be larger than female beards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geert-Jan Buth (talk • contribs) 10:55, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Sunset for Restricted Edit?

How long has this article been under edit restriction? Would it be possible to lift the restriction and see if vandalism is still an issue? And, if not, could it be at least changed to requiring approval of edits before they are committed?—140.153.24.155 (talk) 13:12, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

It has been semi-protected since March 2011. If you want to ask the admins to lift the protection, you'll need to go WP:RFPP and follow the directions. If you would like to make a change in the meantime, just specify the change in a 'please change X to Y' degree of detail and provide sources for any factual changes. Thanks, Older and ... well older (talk) 04:38, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Edit request

I would second this, as I am a friendly random, and was going to post about an edit request

Since when was "Domesticated" a conservation status?

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Thanks, Older and ... well older (talk) 04:38, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2014

In the section under diseases, the list doesn't mention that goats can get meningeal worm, a disease transmitted through white-tailed deer through slugs and snails. There have been many proven cases of meningeal worm in goats ( I have had 2), so I don't see why it shouldn't be listed. Thank you! 198.100.60.250 (talk) 00:07, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, your personal experience is not acceptable to Wikipedia - all information must be verifiable in published (online or paper) sources, which must be quoted. - Arjayay (talk) 08:42, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Change request: Nutrition

The section on goat milk nutrition is outdated and should be amended.

It is true that raw / untreated goat milk is not suitable for goat milk, however goat milk can be used as a safe protein source in infant and follow-on formulas. This is also the case in Europe, where the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) changed its point of view in this matter, after a number of scientific studies proved that goat milk is a safe protein source for infant nutrition. Based on this conclusion they advised the European Commission to amend European Directive 2006/141/EC, which has been carried out by the Standing Committee on the Food Chain and Animal Health, section General Food Law on April 29th 2013.

I have prepared an adjusted text for this section, which includes links to supporting articles. Unfortunately I do not yet have the required number of changes to adjust it myself. Is there someone that can help me to change this section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harald O. (talk • contribs) 08:59, 27 November 2014 (UTC) Harald O. (talk) 08:52, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Donating to this article

I would like to see this article very much improved. This is not a criticism to the article but I feel we ought to carry the weight of the subject in more depth! I have seen the large prompt to donate to Wikipedia and would be interested in doing so, if I could be sure at least 95% of the funds were going directly to improving the article on Goats. Can anyone direct me to how I would make sure the funds go to the right place? NB. I have several goats so as a goat owner I can see the need to make sure people can access detailed and interesting information about them. Horatio Snickers (talk) 10:53, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Buck vs. Ram

In the section "Behavior," this article says that "bucks are more likely to charge or butt at humans than are rams." However, the article's second paragraph says that intact males are referred to "as 'bucks', 'billies', or 'rams.'" This article needs to make up its mind whether bucks and rams are the same thing or different.

74.71.76.217 (talk) 01:29, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Change Request: Nutrition (2)

Since I haven't had a response to my first change request for the Nutrition section and the current version is still outdated, I decided to post the complete version of the proposed text for the Nutrition section, including the references to supporting articles (reference 12 till 16). I would appreciate it if anyone can help me out by replacing the current version by this new, improved version.

Nutrition

Scientific research performed by the University of Auckland and the Child Nutrition Research Centre Women's & Children's Hospital in Adelaide have proven that goats’ milk is safe to use as a basis for infant and follow-on formula. The research proved that the growth and nutritional status of infants fed goat milk formula where not different from infants fed cow milk formula. This scientific evidence convinced authorities including the European Food and Safety Authority (EFSA), that goats´ milk is a safe protein source for infant and follow-on formulas.

Until recently the use of goats’ milk as a protein source for infant and follow-on formulas was prohibited in Europe by the Directive concerning infant formula (2006/141/EC). This directive was formulated in 1991, when there were no goat milk based infant formulas available in the European Union. As a result of this prohibition the Department of Health in the United Kingdom repeatedly released statements stating on various occasions in the past that [42] "Goats' milk is not suitable for babies, and infant formulas and follow-on formulas based on goats' milk protein have not been approved for use in Europe", and "infant milks based on goats' milk protein are not suitable as a source of nutrition for infants."[43]

Based on the new scientific evidence the EFSA changed their point of view and in October 2012 they suggested an amendment of the law. On April 29th 2013 the Standing Committee on the Food Chain and Animal Health, section General Food Law agreed with the EFSA and approved the amendment providing goats’ milk with the same status as cow milk and to allow goat milk infant and follow-on formulas to be sold within the European Union (if they are in compliance with the criteria laid down in Directive 2006/141/EC).

The American Academy of Pediatrics discourages feeding infants standard, untreated milk derived from goats. An April 2010 case report [40] summarizes their recommendation and presents "a comprehensive review of the consequences associated with this dangerous practice", also stating, "Many infants are exclusively fed unmodified goat's milk as a result of cultural beliefs as well as exposure to false online information. Anecdotal reports have described a host of morbidities associated with that practice, including severe electrolyte abnormalities, metabolic acidosis, megaloblastic anemia, allergic reactions including life-threatening anaphylactic shock, hemolytic uremic syndrome, and infections." Untreated caprine brucellosis results in a 2% case fatality rate. According to the USDA, doe milk is not recommended for human infants because it contains "inadequate quantities of iron, folate, vitamins C and D, thiamin, niacin, vitamin B6, and pantothenic acid to meet an infant’s nutritional needs" and may cause harm to an infant's kidneys and could cause metabolic damage.[41] Also according to the Canadian Federal Health Department - Health Canada, most of the dangers or counter-indication of feeding unmodified goat milk to infants, are similar to those incurring in the same practice with cow's milk, namely in the allergic reactions.[44] On the other hand, some farming groups promote the practice. For example, Small Farm Today in 2005 claimed beneficial use in invalid and convalescent diets, proposing that glycerol ethers, possibly important in nutrition for nursing infants, are much higher in doe milk than in cow milk.[45] A 1970 book on animal breeding claimed doe milk differs from cow or human milk by having higher digestibility, distinct alkalinity, higher buffering capacity, and certain therapeutic values in human medicine and nutrition.[46] George Mateljan suggested doe milk can replace ewe milk or cow milk in diets of those who are allergic to certain mammals' milk.[47] However, like cow milk, doe milk has lactose (sugar), and may cause gastrointestinal problems for individuals with lactose intolerance.[47] In fact, the level of lactose is similar to that of bovine milk.[43]

Harald O. (talk) 10:35, 25 March 2015 (UTC)