Talk:Elena of Avalor/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Princess prefix

How come in the char list we say "Elena" and "Princess Isabel" if Elena is also a princess? Why no title? Ranze (talk) 18:57, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

@Ranze: Because she is credited as just "Elena" in the press release press release issued by Disney: '"Elena of Avalor" stars Aimee Carrero as the voice of Elena; Jenna Ortega as Princess Isabel; ...' (emphasis mine). nyuszika7h (talk) 20:06, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Makes sense going by the press release alone. Could this change if later official stuff (like end credits, toys, news articles) do so differently? Ranze (talk) 11:56, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

@Ranze: If it's something like end credits or another press release (like fact sheets which were released for shows like Best Friends Whenever and K.C. Undercover), then yes. Not so sure about the other cases, but we'll see. nyuszika7h (talk) 12:12, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

July 15 claim

There is a note in the first episode about it debuting in UK/Ireland on the 15th a week ahead of its scheduled 22nd debut on Disney channel. I can't seem to find any supporting sources for this. Is anyone able to verify the claim? Fact-tagged it but if we can't I would suggest removing it.

If it can be verified then this should be used as the OAD for the series/first ep.

Also since the first 2 eps are being combined for a debut if we could possibly clarify if it was just the 1st or also the 2nd if either did air on the 15th. Ranze (talk) 19:00, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Original air date generally refers to the premiere date in the country of origin. When episodes are released earlier in another country, it's better to make it a note than adding both to the air date column (but either way, the air date in the country of origin should still be listed). I found a YouTube video from Disney Channel UK's official account, but it only says "sneak peak" [sic], so we can't really use that as a source. nyuszika7h (talk) 20:14, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Generally according to whom? This is a field on template:episode list which says nothing about 'country of origin'. I do agree with listing a country-of-origin date, just as an AltDate if it came after. The peak is only 1:13 so it's just promo clips not the full episode. Mentioning when they first showed clips would be interesting to include somewhere (just not sure where, broadcast?) but it wouldn't be the date of episode 1. Ranze (talk) 11:56, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

@Ranze: WP:TVINTL actually suggests detailing these in the "Broadcast" section: "For example, if the American show Breaking Bad aired its series finale in France a month before it aired in the U.S., this should be added to the "Broadcast" section". I think having a footnote doesn't hurt, but may be redundant as long as the episode list is in the same article. Anyway, I'll just remove the claim for now as we can't confirm whether the full episode actually aired. nyuszika7h (talk) 12:08, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

That means that you should make additional notation of the original air date being an international one in the broadcast section, not that you should exclude listing the legitimate universal OAD in the proper field of the table. I agree it does seem moot if we can't verify it, although I would encourage others to look as I didn't spend a huge amount of time on it. Knowing where in UK/Ireland (channel?) it supposedly aired would be nice. I'll check history for who added it and contact them. Ranze (talk) 12:23, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

@Ranze: Well, there doesn't seem to be a completely clear guidance on this, might need an RfC or something, but I'm not going to continue arguing over that here now. Anyway, I'd assume it aired on Disney Channel, and that's the account which uploaded the YouTube video announcing the sneak peek as well. nyuszika7h (talk) 12:26, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

evil sorceress

I notice this is mentioned in the plot summary yet I don't see any of the characters listed as being a sorceress. Has who this is not been revealed yet? Makes me wonder if it might be one of the evil sorceresses Sofia already faced or something. Ranze (talk) 12:35, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

• NM added mention of "Shuriki" in character list per https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfNTEf5ZtSc although we need to find out who voices her. Ranze (talk) 12:42, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

My Time

I am wondering about where we should include this on the episode list. Rogers mentions this title so I think it could be an AltTitle for one of the episodes, just not sure which one. https://web.archive.org/web/20160727190202/http://www.rogersondemand.com/OnDemand/Show/elena_of_avalor?lang=en indicates On-Demand availability of First Day of Rule on June 20th and My Time on July 18th. Ranze (talk) 19:07, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

0711

http://www.disneyabcpress.com/disneychannel/shows/11836/episodes/vip-screening-event-7-11-16/

How should we list this? The website refers to it as "Episode 0711" but that is clearly a reference to its July 11 date... is this one of the existing episodes, a unique one? Should we call it episode 0? Ranze (talk) 19:26, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Sofia relation

I believe this should be a "preceded by" because I'm watching the start of episode 1 and Elena is clearly relating a summary of the events we'll soon see in full during the "Elena and the Secret of Avalor" film in autumn. So since this happens after this StF/EoA crossover special, it's clearly a sequel series to Sofia and not a prequel series, since a flashback narration done for a minute at the start is not a prequel. Ranze (talk) 20:18, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

The parameters at Template:Infobox television state: "If Show A/B was a predecessor/successor of Show B/A, insert the name of Show A/B [or B/A] and production years." So this shouldn't be a problem. Just like Laverne & Shirley and Happy Days. — Wyliepedia 00:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

"Original air date"

I've said this before elsewhere, but I will reiterate again – the "original air date" column should (I'd go further and say must...) refer to the (premiere) airdates in the COUNTRY OF ORIGIN (note the country = U.S. parameter in {{Episode table}} template...). If a particular episode premieres in a foreign country like Canada, Australia or the UK before it premieres in the U.S., then that info can be included as an added "note" to the original U.S. airdate. Therefore, I strongly believe the "original air date" for the first two episodes should be returned to "July 22" (which can easily be sourced to this) ASAP. Pinging recent editors to the page: Amaury and Ranze. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:07, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Completely agree per the reasons IJBall stated. Obviously, we can't use all the countries—that would be a lot of columns, and tables wouldn't look pretty—but if another major country also airs the show, we could add another column. See Backstage for an example. Amaury (talk | contribs) 07:24, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree, as I have already said before. The world premiere, if earlier than the premiere in the country of origin, can be added in a footnote in the air date column (e.g. with {{efn}}). The MOS says to put it in the "Broadcast" section, but it should be fine to add a footnote (though the episode list is on the same page for now). nyuszika7h (talk) 08:59, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

@Nyuszika7H: if Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Television conflicts with the instructions at Template:Episode list, we should first investigate to see which is correct. I'll know that the MoS page is unlocked and the template is locked, so the former is more vulnerable to vandalism or changes without consensus than the other. Which part of the MoS are you saying has authority over the template use instructions? Ranze (talk) 14:01, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

@Amaury: listing the original broadcast date would not require listing 'all the countries', a bit of a strawman there. Ranze (talk) 14:01, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Agree to all the above, especially with keeping the episode table clutter-free. No additional columns or "notes". All broadcast information in other countries go in the proper section and in prose form. — Wyliepedia 13:32, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

@CAWylie: other country air dates would not be something I'd suggest putting in the table unless they belonged here. We have two that do, because they are the original air dates for those episodes. If a country of origin delays in releasing an episode, its late-date does not retroactively become the 'original air date' by ignoring the truthfully original air date from previous to that. Ranze (talk) 03:30, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

@IJBall: The problem here is that template:episode list says for the "OriginalAirDate" field "This is the date the episode first aired on TV". The episode list template says absolutely nothing about 'country of origin'. Ranze (talk) 14:01, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

What do you think the country = U.S. parameter is for, then? It's not just for ratings, because the ratings have to match to an airdate... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:18, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

All three of you, I believe this supports the use of the actual original air dates, not merely when they debuted late on Disney Channel. I am consulting WP:TVOVERVIEW's subsection Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Television#Contents:

Since many series do not have proper "Premieres" and "Finales", such language should be avoided in the overview, with "First aired" and "Last aired" used instead. There are practical reasons for this: Some networks air previews of a series in advance of that program's official "premiere" (see Fanboy & Chum Chum). By restricting the series overview to the literal "first aired" date in the intended market, we avoid any confusion; the first aired date would be that preview date.

Bolded the last sentence for emphasis.

The argument that we should include the later non-original air dates of an episode's debut in country-of-production seems to be based on a misunderstanding of statements of WP:TVINTL:

Apart from the channel of origin for the series, editors are encouraged to instead detail noteworthy (see next paragraph) foreign broadcasts, from English-speaking countries, through prose form.

Some may think 'channel of origin' refers to Disney Channel. RogersTV distributing the episode on-demand June 20th and DisneyAPP distributing the episode online July 1st may not be considered 'channels', so I agree that noting the Disney Channel debut date is useful, but that still doesn't make it the 'original' air date if the episode was broadcast prior to that date.

For example, if the American show Breaking Bad aired its series finale in France a month before it aired in the U.S., this should be added to the "Broadcast" section

I'm assuming that's a hypothetical example because Felina (Breaking Bad) doesn't mention France anywhere? If not then if there was an earlier French broadcast of BB then this should be incorporated into that page.

The thing about this is, it is only instructing to point this out additionally/supplementary in the Broadcast section. This is not an instruction to substitute an American air date in the episode table in place of an earlier French date if it aired first in France. It is just saying to mention the French situation in the Broadcast there also, not instead-of the episode table.

Is there some other sentence in the MoS someone would like to bring up that I may be overlooking which you believe supports the exclusion of the earliest original air date if it occurs outside the country of production? Ranze (talk) 14:01, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Your MOS:TV quote above actually supports what I'm saying: By restricting the series overview to the literal "first aired" date in the intended market, we avoid any confusion... The "intended market" here is the same as the country of origin: the United States (i.e. not Canada). More to the point, you already have the June 20 and July 1 dates mentioned not once, but twice in text – they don't need to be in the episode table as well. Finally, and this is important – it looks like the consensus here is against your way of doing this: we now have a total of 4 editors that want to go back to the July 22 airdate in the episode table. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:55, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

That is original research. The show has many intended markets, not just the country of origin. Stop treating non-synonyms as synonyms. Truth trumps consensus, 'original' is defined as 'first' in the template, if you want to use that template you must follow its instructions and not make up your own instructions. Ranze (talk) 03:28, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

That is not OR. It may be intended for multiple markets, but we should only be documenting information from the country of origin. Documenting air dates, for example, in every single country it airs in would make the episode table rather cluttered. You've got a few editors against you on this and yet you insist on your version because you think you're "right111"! That is some pretty heavy WP:OWN and WP:ER behavior, and I suggest you dial it back or you risk being blocked. Amaury (talk | contribs) 04:17, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Ranze, at this point you're risking edit warring against consensus. It is really not worth it. You've already "won", in that your preferred premiere dates are mentioned not just in the 'Broadcast' section, but in the article's lede as well. There's really nothing to be gained for you by edit warring in regards to the Episode table. Just Let it go... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:42, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Esteban relation

Supposedly Elena calls him her cousin in "Model Sister". That's not necessarily reliable though, Elena is capable of telling lies. It is also possible to be uncle and cousin at the same time.

That said, the uncle claim appears to be based on http://www.stitchkingdom.com/disney-elena-of-avalor-supporting-cast-announced-83285/ saying "Christian Lanz (“Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles”) as Elena’s uncle and Royal Advisor Duke Esteban"

Looking past how reliable StitchKingdom.com is (I have no idea) couldn't this actually be talking about Lanz voicing 2 separate characters? Thinking that Royal Advisor Duke Esteban (RADE) is necessarily Elena's uncle based on that phrasing isn't mandatory. Perhaps a separate uncle character is introduced? Does either parent have a sibling? Perhaps in a yet to be aired episode? Ranze (talk) 19:34, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Francine Brokaw mentions:

the Grand Council (Francisco, her grandfather, Luisa, her grandmother, Duke Esteban, her older cousin, and Naomi, her new friend)

I question how reliable this is. Namely because, if you watch the episode, Elena addresses Naomi by her full name, Naomi Turner, when appointing her to the council. This already shows that Brokaw is not giving much attention to detail.

To assert definitely that Esteban is actually Elena's cousin, I think we need a more official source. It is likely that Brokaw is engaged in some speculation here because so far as I recall in that episode, it was only Isabel who called Esteban 'cousin'. She is a child and may not understand familial relationships, I think we should wait until someone older describes his relationship before asserting what it is. For example: is he a first cousin? Second or third? A step-cousin? A cousin-in-law? Children in these shows are prone to simplifying relationships. We see this in Sofia the First because Sofia is actually the step-sister by marriage to James and Amber, yet the three do not use 'step' when describing their relationship, they just say 'brother' and 'sister'.

Another question is whether we should call him 'older'. I agree that he certainly LOOKS older than Elena, but judging just based on appearances is still OR by Brokaw, if that is the only basis. Do we have some other source as to his age, like a statement in the show?

When Elena appoints him to the council, she comments on his great familiarity with politics and experience and stuff like that, but I don't recall his age being singled out as a factor for any of the 4 people she appoints. So unless this gets mentioned in a later episode about him being older, we should probably wait until we have a statement directly from Disney about him being older before saying that he is.

This isn't like Isabel where Elena being older than her is much more obvious and also addressed in the dialogue. Ranze (talk) 14:24, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

In the second episode; "Model Sister" Elena calls him cousin twice. Once in private, and the other time she introduces him as "my cousin Esteban". Esteban is Elena's cousin. There is no reason not to believe that. Also, in regards to him being older, series creator and executive producer tweeted this: https://twitter.com/_CraigGerber/status/757606314197463040 Wikicontributor12 (talk) 21:55, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Disney UK

MFW if someone had just bothered to archive https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.disney.co.uk/disney-channel/whats-on ~July 15 we could have totally resolved the problem with sourcing what the context of the 'sneak peak' was.

Based on the YT video I imagine it was longer than a 1-2 minute clip but it may not have been a full episode. Due to that I'll be moving it out of the episode table and into the 'broadcast' until we can source it. Ranze (talk) 12:27, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

This tweet seems to confirm it was a full episode. nyuszika7h (talk) 14:08, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

6 and 7

Perhaps we should reconsider the assumption that episode numbers are determined by air date.

Presently we list:

• "Prince Too Charming" as episode 6 due to it debuting September 16 even though its code is 107
• "Finders Leapers" as episode 7 due to its debuting September 23 even though its code is 106

Let's look at the episode numbers which are assigned by distributors though, like http://archive.is/ROm0L shows:

• 9:30 AM ELENA OF AVALOR S1 EPS #006 FINDERS LEAPERS (CC)
• 7:00 PM ELENA OF AVALOR S1 EPS #007 PRINCE TOO CHARMING

This clearly has the episode numbers matching the production codes, not contradicting them.

Isn't assigning episode numbers based on air dates original research? Do any reliable sources actually assign those numbers? Ranze (talk) 05:47, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

@Ranze: The convention is to order episodes by first airing date in an article about a broadcast TV series and the episode number is an ordinal reflecting the broadcast order and position in the table. The airing order is determined by the network and the network determines, for their own reasons, when, and even if, they air episodes and what episodes they buy belong in whatever season as defined by the network. Production order is interesting background info and the production code generally reflects that for readers who wish to know that, which is one of the reasons there is a production code column in the table. Other outlets may order them differently but this article is primarily documenting the broadcast of a television series. The production company may also produce episodes out of logical story telling order for their own internal production reasons so even production code might not reflect the designed order of the writers to tell the story in a logical sequence. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:07, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

I believe the convention of assigning numbers by first air date is only followed when we have no other conflicting sources giving a different episode numbering. This isn't just about production order, but in the actual numbers assigned to the episodes when they are advertised in guides.

If different numbers are assigned to the episodes which conflict with our assumptions about numbers from the broadcast order then we should have 2 number columns like List_of_The_Melancholy_of_Haruhi_Suzumiya_episodes#Season_1 manages with 4 which are clickable to arrange the table based on official numbering order or broadcast order. Ranze (talk) 10:25, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

What actually happens is generally what we document. This article is documenting the initial broadcast of the series so there is no conflict on broadcast order of the first airings of each episode in the series. The official order of a broadcast television series is the order that they were broadcast in by choice of the original broadcast network. Other orders, if notable, could be noted in the "Broadcast" section of the article but it is not something normally added to the table itself, usually production order, which is documented, is sufficient. As you stated, the other listings match production order so the production code column should be sufficient to show that order. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:03, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Attempted move of this article to Elena of Avalor (TV series)

User:Misw121 moved the article to create further and unnecessary disambiguation of this topic about the TV series, and I moved the article back to its original identity as I believe when this is searched in Wikipedia, it's understood what it refers to, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. MPFitz1968 (talk) 08:47, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree, disambiguation was unnecessary for this topic. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:43, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Split of episode list section to a separate article

A proposed split tag has been added to the Episodes section.

• Oppose for now Normally this is done sometime after a second season table has been created with well-referenced info about the first episode of the new season. This comment was added because of WP:SILENCE and the normal presumption of agreement when opposition has not been voiced. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:06, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
• Not yet as per Geraldo Perez. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:30, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - not until second season. SatDis (talk) 15:37, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Elena and the Secret of Avalor - Special standalone movie

See Amazon, where it's not listed. It is a standalone movie special outside of the main series as seen on Amazon here. Amazon, iTunes, and other vendors are the authoritative source as they sell media how they are told to by the networks. Any future re-insertions of this movie special to the episode list here will be reverted on the spot. Amaury (talk | contribs) 18:37, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

I could see adding it to a 'Series overview' table as a "special" (a la "Girl Meets Demolition" at List of Girl Meets World episodes). But it definitely should not be included at season #1. I think it's best to wait until there's a "season #2", and the episodes list is 'split off' – at that point, Elena and the Secret of Avalor can be added to the then-appropriate series overview table as a special. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:03, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Elena and the Secret of Avalor is called Season 1 Episode 11 on Disney's WatchDisneyChannel.com and should be listed as such in the Wikipedia article. This is a higher authority than iTunes or Amazon. Zap2it also lists it as Season 1 Episode 11 and they also get their listings from the networks. It doesn't matter how episodes are archived by iTunes or Amazon. It's how they originally aired that defines how it is listed on Wikipedia. 2601:1C0:C802:452D:78FA:299:D8BF:C423 (talk) 18:48, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Wrong. Vendors, like Amazon and iTunes, get their media directly from the networks and they sell it how they are told to—they have no latitude on how to sell it. Also, Screener has a habit of making minor mistakes in their episode guides, but Screener as well as other reliable sources, such as The Futon Critic, Disney ABC Press, and Watch Disney, all get superseded by what actually happens, which is reflected by how vendors, such as Amazon and iTunes, sell the media. Amaury (talk | contribs) 18:57, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Vendors like Amazon and iTunes are not the authority because they're not the original source of the material. If a network airs an episode as Season 1 Episode 11 but Amazon or iTunes markets it as something different, we still list it on Wikipedia as Season 1 Episode 11.2601:1C0:C802:452D:78FA:299:D8BF:C423 (talk) 04:56, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

I'll just quote myself: Vendors, like Amazon and iTunes, get their media directly from the networks and they sell it how they are told to—they have no latitude on how to sell it. Amaury (talk | contribs) 05:00, 13 March 2017 (UTC)