Talk:Dogra dynasty

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Please note this article has been created by bringing over relevant text from Maharaja Hari Singh of Jammu and Kashmir.Atulsnischal 08:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

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Huge revert, finally

I have reverted the article to the version a couple of years ago [1], having gotten tired witnessing its unwieldy growth in the recent months. As the Encyclopedia Britannica explains (the reference [1]), what is called the "Dogra dynasty" begins with Gulab Singh accession as the Raja of Jammu, and ends with the abolition of monarchy by the J&K Constituent Assembly. I don't mind if there is brief coverage of the ancestors of Gulab Singh, and the descendants of Karan Singh. But it has to be really brief. See the EB article to get an idea how brief it has to be. There is a full-fledged article on Jammu and Kashmir (princely state), which is where all the State issues get covered.

Pinging Sitush and RegentsPark for their input. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:36, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

While I agree that the article needed some editing from it's prior state, I think it is a drastic step to delete all content and sources of over two years. Wikipedia is not supposed to be restricted to mirroring Encyclopedia Britannica. The following site states that the "Dogra dynasty" traces back to "Rai Jambu-Lochana (founder of Jammu)" in antiquity, [2], which predates the princely state. So the article should include details of it's members from then if notable. It's shame to lose content that has historic references or recent citations. I have listed a few of the editors who previously contributed to this article for their opinion too. Parkywiki, John of Reading, Hmains, Sundostund, GSS-1987, Rayaraya, Sitush, NidekUS, Bgwhite, Bender235, and Mild Bill Hiccup. — Beautiful future (talk) 08:24, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

The site that you link - royalark - has long been considered generically unreliable. It was discussed at WP:RSN. - Sitush (talk) 08:45, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

The term Dogra dynasty itself is seriously problematic, because Dogra is an ethnicity, not a clan or lineage. What has come to be called the "Dogra dynasty" because of the branding done by the Sikhs and the Kashmiris, is the Jamwal clan that Gulab Singh belonged to. So, in my opinion, this page should prominently mention the Jamwal clan, and discuss only those people. Probably, Dhruv Dev was the earliest of those. All the Jambu-lochan legends should go in the Jammu page.-- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:10, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

But more recent facts such as Hari Singh as a member of Churchill's British War Cabinet in WWII and involvement in WWI should remain. As well as Glubal Singh's father Kishore Singh being appointed the Jagdir (governor) of Jammu after the ousting of Raja Jit Singh and the section on Gulab Singh's relatives serving as Prime Ministers of the Sikh empire, and his betrayal of the Sikh empire in the First Anglo-Sikh war. All this is notable and related to the Dogras or Jamwals too. Also under what dynasty does one label the rulers before Dhruv Dev? I believe "Dogra dynasty" still makes sense in historic and linguistic reflection as all those Rajput clans speak the Dogri language and are in Jammu. Beautiful future (talk) 06:42, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

At the moment, we have three pages that discuss (or need to discuss) essentially the same material:

• Jammu and Kashmir (princely state)
• This page.
• Jamwal, which currently has nothing.

The princely state page and this page should only discuss the line of rulers that descend from Gulab Singh. The princely state page would of course have all the affairs of the state, whereas this page can discuss the family matters. The Jamwal page can have details about other members of the clan, including Dhyan Singh and his descendants (who are also covered in Historical Poonch District), Mian Dido and perhaps others.

Regarding the Imperial recognitions of the Dogra rulers, they can be covered in both this page and the princely state page, but please keep in mind that they were not personal honours, rather honours bestowed upon the state, for its size and importance, and the contribution the state made to the Imperial war efforts. So you can't go overboard in glorifying the rulers. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:03, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

@Beautiful future: there are numerous problems with your edits. Please slow down, check the sources careflly, and edit one section at a time, so that the edits can be verified. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:15, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your concern. I plan to reveiw the article again shortly to see if there are any problems. — Beautiful future (talk) 12:24, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

To illustrate some of the problems I corrected in this edit:

• "largest princely state" is ambiguous.
• the inclusion of Pratap Singh is undue, and so is the excessive weight to the war efforts. (Is it the most important function of a Maharaja, to support Britain's wars?)
• Karan Singh "abdicated" has no support in reliable sources.
• adding sourced content next to unsourced content, without noting that the prior content was unsourced.
• You added a link to Churchill's War Cabinet, but that page makes no mention of Hari Singh.
• You added a link to low caste, but that page talks about OBC's, a concept defined in 1980s.

I am afraid "reviewing later" will not resolve such problems. You need to check the edits carefully before you make them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:32, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

And, notice here. A ridiculous claim of 14th century BC, which hasn't been corroborated by any self-respecting historian, with a citation to somebody called "Mohin Jadarro Harrapa". Where is your due diligence? How exactly is this a WP:HISTRS? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:07, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your edits. I concur the introduction reads better and more concise now. The 14th century BC date is simply legend believed by many local historians, I had added a second reference The economy of Jammu & Kashmir to clarify that and mentioned that the claim was attributed to local Jammu chronicles Gulabnama and Raj Darshani more so than being hard confirmed fact. The definition of abdicate means to "renounce one's throne" according to this Oxford dictionary [3] which while voluntary is what happened. The sources do mention it as the largest princely state, however your change to "one of the largest" serves better than, "second-largest" that was erroneously left there before. — Beautiful future (talk) 14:04, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Treaties on Kashmir

Various scholars have written on the Instrument of Accession (Jammu and Kashmir), The Treaty of Lahore (9 March 1846) and the Treaty of Amritsar (16 March 1846). But very little of that text is on wikipedia.

Maharaja gulab Singh originally worked for the Sikh Empire. But then betrayed the Sikh empire by siding with the East India Company in the Anglo-Sikh War. His name is mentioned in the treaty of Lahore too. He collected Taxes for the East India Company and the money was then given by him to the East India Company.

The Treaty of Lahore (9 March 1846) and the Treaty of Amritsar (16 March 1846) lapsed under Article 7 of the Independence Act 1947. The Act was passed by the British Parliament on July 18, 1947 to assent to the creation of the independent states of India and Pakistan. The aforementioned Article 7 provides that, with the lapse of His Majesty’s suzerainty over the Indian states, all treaties, agreements, obligations, grants, usages and sufferance’s will lapse.

The 7 year old Maharaja Duleep Singh Bahadur (Sikh) was under the control of the East India company when he sign The Treaty of Lahore on 9 March 1846 which gave Jammu and Kashmir and its people to the East India Company.

Under the British legal system and international law a treaty signed by the 7 year old Maharaja Duleep Singh Bahadur and under duress is not valid. (The International Court of Justice has stated that there "can be little doubt, as is implied in the Charter of the United Nations and recognized in Article 52 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, that under contemporary international law an agreement concluded under the threat or use of force is void.)

We may need to add a section on the impact on the removal of Article 370 of the Indian constitution on The Instrument of Accession too. None of this text is on there.

Various scholars have written on these treaties, for example Alistair Lamb disputed the validity of the Instrument of Accession in his paper Myth of Indian Claim to JAMMU & KASHMIR –– A REAPPRAISAL'

Where he writes "While the date, and perhaps even the fact, of the accession to India of the State of Jammu & Kashmir in late October 1947 can be questioned, there is no dispute at that time any such accession was presented to the world at large as conditional and provisional. It was not communicated to Pakistan at the outset of the overt Indian intervention in the State of Jammu & Kashmir, nor was it presented in facsimile to the United Nations in early 1948 as part of the initial Indian reference to the Security Council. The 1948 White Paper in which the Government of India set out its formal case in respect to the State of Jammu & Kashmir, does not contain the Instrument of Accession as claimed to have been signed by the Maharajah: instead, it reproduces an unsigned form of Accession such as, it is implied, the Maharajah might have signed. To date no satisfactory original of this Instrument as signed by the Maharajah has been produced: though a highly suspect version, complete with the false date 26 October 1947, has been circulated by the Indian side since the 1960s. On the present evidence it is by no means clear that the Maharaja ever did sign an Instrument of Accession.

Indian troops actually began overtly to intervene in the State’s affairs on the morning of 27 October 1947

It is now absolutely clear that the two documents (a) the Instrument of Accession, and (c) the letter to Lord Mountbatten, could not possibly have been signed by the Maharajah of Jammu & Kashmir on 26 October 1947. The earliest possible time and date for their signature would have to be the afternoon of 27 October 1947. During 26 October 1947 the Maharajah of Jammu & Kashmir was travelling by road from Srinagar to Jammu. (The Kashmir State Army divisions and the Kashmiri people had already turned on him and he was on the run and had no authority in the state). His new Prime Minister, M.C. Mahajan, who was negotiating with the Government of India, and the senior Indian official concerned in State matters, V.P. Menon, were still in New Delhi where they remained overnight, and where their presence was noted by many observers. There was no communication of any sort between New Delhi and the travelling Maharajah. Menon and Mahajan set out by air from New Delhi to Jammu at about 10.00 a.m. on 27 October; and the Maharajah learned from them for the first time the result of his Prime Minister’s negotiations in New Delhi in the early afternoon of that day. The key point, of course, as has already been noted above, is that it is now obvious that these documents could only have been signed after the overt Indian intervention in the State of Jammu & Kashmir on 27 October 1947. When the Indian troops arrived at Srinagar air field, that State was still independent. Any agreements favourable to India signed after such intervention cannot escape the charge of having been produced under duress. (The International Court of Justice has stated that there "can be little doubt, as is implied in the Charter of the United Nations and recognized in Article 52 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, that under contemporary international law an agreement concluded under the threat or use of force is void.)"

Additionally Maharaja was on the run. The prevailing international practice on the recognition of state governments is based on the following three factors: first, the government’s actual control of the territory; second, the government’s enjoyment of the support and obedience of the majority of the population; third, the government’s ability to stake the claim that it has a reasonable expectation of staying in power. The situation on the ground demonstrates that the Maharaja was not in control of the state of Jammu and Kashmir and was fleeing for his life and almost all of Kashmir was under the control of the Kashmiri people and the Kashmiri Army that had rebelled against him. His own troops had turned on him. With regard to the Maharaja’s control over the local population, it is clear that he enjoyed no such control or support. The people of Kashmir had been sold by the East India Company and he charged them high taxes thetefore the Kashmir Muslims, Hindus Pandits and Buddhists hated him. Furthermore, the state’s armed forces were in total disarray after most of the men turned against him and he was running for his life. Finally, it is highly doubtful that the Maharaja could claim that his government had a reasonable chance of staying in power without Indian military intervention. This assumption is substantiated by the Maharaja’s letters.

Many of these treaties apply to Jammu and Kashmir. The Kashmir conflict is already on Wikipedia. It is internationally recognized as a disputed territory under various United United Nations resolutions that are already listed on Wikipedia Nations Security Council Resolution 47, Nations Security Council Resolution 39,mediation of the Kashmir dispute, Nations Commission for India and Pakistan. There is a lot of documentation on Jammu and Kashmir in the UN archives already. If you look at the page Kashmir conflict, it already contains sections on the "Indian view", "Pakistani view", "Chinese view", "Kashmiri views". May be we could do something like that with these treaty pages. The Treaty of Lahore was signed in 9 March 1846 and the Treaty of Amritsar 16 March 1846. They predate the creation of both modern day India and Pakistan. The Treaty of Lahore was signed between the Sikh Empire and the British government. It is an international treaty and comes under international law. Johnleeds1 (talk) 11:36, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

"Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 December 10#Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Soumya-8974 (he) ^talk _contribs ^subpages 18:18, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Ankit Love is an illegitimate and unrecognized Pretender to the throne of Kashmir

User:Kautilya3 why have you removed Ankit Love from the infobox as a pretender to the throne, as the definition on wikipedia: "A pretender is someone who claims to be the rightful ruler of a country although not recognized as such by the current government. The term is often used to suggest that a claim is not legitimate." Surly Ankit Love's claim as per the news sources fits this definition of an illegitimate and unrecognized pretender, while Karan Singh was the actual son of the King and also recognized by government and so perhaps should not be even listed as a pretender in the infobox. Or do you disagree with this logic? --Death Star Central (talk) 00:13, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

There is no "throne" of Kashmir. Do you have a source that labels him a "pretender"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:57, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Page move proposal

This page was meant for the "Dogra dynasty", which refers to Raja Gulab Singh and his successors. However, it has now been expanded with considerable material dating back to Emperor Akbar's time. I find this new material useful, though it is inappropriate expansion.

I suggest we rename the page to History of Jammu, with "Dogra dynasty" being redirected to a section of it. The lead would need to be rewritten. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)