Talk:Cascada

Chart

Where has the chart singles gone? Someone needs to put it back up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryansc113 (talk • contribs) 12:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Can I advise the person who wrote something like "Ms Horler is German and lives in Germany despite the fact their are rumors of her being english" to look on Natalie Horler here. She states that her parents are english, and she lived a very english lifestyle, as a British Citizen. Her parents might have wanted her to grow up being british rather than German, who knows? But look up on these things before you decide to write it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryansc113 (talk • contribs) 11:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone needs to get images, and clean up this talk page. Archive or turn what people have said into neater, better english. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.235.114 (talk) 21:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

How do u do was never charted in Germany, there a lo of false informations

Remakes Section is uneccessary... What musical act hasn't covered some songs? I think this section should be removed - especially because it includes songs that were merely album tracks...If we had a section like this for all artists it would be ridiculous.

• I suspect this comment is outdated, but I think I ought to point out: unless the section is extremely POV, it is factual information - and should therefore be kept. Falcon 04:39, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. it shouldn't be there. 130.13.106.24 22:15, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Cascada är en jätte bra sångare som är känd över hela världen...

Horler doesn't go by the name Cascada !!!

Did the page change recently, because it seems to imply now that Horler is Cascada, and doesn't even mention the DJs involved. What gives? Rbinc 03:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

"Originally called Cascade until legal conflicts forced them to change their name, Cascada is the slick, uplifting Euro-dance trio featuring producers DJ Manian and Yanou along with vocalist Natalie Horler, although Horler is sometimes presented as Cascada herself."

That's from http://www.pandora.com/music/artist/cascada

Aequitarum Custos (talk) 22:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Missing song or wrong title

Um. I was wondering if it was Cascada who sings Piece of Heaven, or if the song goes by a different name or what? --setsuka13 —Preceding comment was added at 21:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Piece of Heaven is a early project with vocals from Natalie and mixed by DJ Manian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cprice1000 (talk • contribs) 05:13, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Who deleted everything!!!!!

I was wondering because that really isn't nice..... I fixed the awards, albums, and second paragraph sections though. I pasted the outline of the albums and singles part so you don't have to re-do everything.

Section on Youtube's influence on Cascada, Yanou and DJ Manian?

I was wondering if there should be a section on the influence of Youtube on the the Every Time We Touch and Listen to your Heart videos. Both songs were under the Robbins Entertainment label. The videos are still in the top 20 all time viewed on YouTube and this may have had a large influence on Cascada's success. Though i am not sure if this can be verified through other sources, it may just be POV. --Mattarata 16:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

MISC

This article needs a table to show chart positions...clunky prose just doesn't do it for me. Most of the rest of just needs a Cascada fan who can write about them with some kind of fluency. Sadly, I am not that person. What a pity.

Cheers, NorseOdin 07:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

DJ Manian's website has officially announced "A Neverending Dream" as the next Cascada single.

Cascada's official website has listed "A Neverending Dream" as the next Cascada single IN GERMANY. The American single is still undecided. Spyco 09:25, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Um...actually I wrote that a wicked long time ago, and I was talking about Germany not the U.S., the American single is not undecided as "Miracle" was released May 9th. - jmccoymoniz, 9 June 2006.

OK. But it would've been helpful to have put the tildes in. =) Spyco 06:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

---

I added in the band summary table, but I think the article still needs to be revised, as it jumps from one idea to the next. Anyway, enjoy! ^_^

~Regal
RegalChillin 10:02, 14 March 2006 (EST; GMT -0005)

I cleaned it up

The song FINALLY hit the radio today in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and I had to find out about the artist. I couldn't stand to look at the, so I decided fix it. I specialize in racing knowledge, but I'm a fan of electronica too. Royalbroil 03:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME, "EVERYTIME WE TOUCH" BY CASCADA IS NOT A COVER OF MAGGIE REILLY, IT SAMPLES SOME OF THE CHORUS. THE SONGS ARE NOTHING ALIKE AT ALL...

I have a remix of Everytime We Touch that features totally different lyrics. The chorus is the same and that's about it. The voice is different too; it's not Natalie Horler. So after a little research (*cough*leoslyrics.com*cough*) I found that Everytime We Touch was released by a woman named Tamee Harrison in 2003 as an acoustic track. The chorus is identicle to the Cascada version. Anyone know anything about that? Did Cascada steal Tamee's work? *gasp* I hope not. I love Cascada. ^.^ Oh, and you can listen to a sample of the Tamee Harrison version here: http://www.tamee.com/th_music2.php Danner578 00:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Tamee's song is a cover of Maggie Rielly's 'EWT.' Cascada SAMPLES the chorus to Maggie Rielly's 'EWT.' So that's why the choruses are the same...DUH!

Ah, I see. Good to know. Danner578 03:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Many artists have completely covered Maggie's original song, including Trinity and Lacara. Cascada has COVERED the CHORUS. Covering means re-doing a song, Cascada has RE-DONE the chorus! Saying the Cascada version of Everytime We Touch SAMPLES Maggie's original version is wrong, as the word sampling implies that parts of Maggie's original RECORDING was used in the Cascada version. In truth, Cascada only COVERED THE LYRICS.

Right...Hear that all the time...So Mariah Carey "covered" the lyrics to "Two Occasions" and "I Only think Of You" for "We Belong Together?" then, right? LOL [email protected]

this is a good music. Casada is my favorite music ever!!!!!!!!!!!

WOULDN'T IT BE GOOD IS NOT A SINGLE.

Nowhere has anybody related to the Cascada project said that Wouldn't It Be Good would be a future single in Germany, nor in Canada. Based on recent decisions by Zooland Records, as well as Z103 (On the Partymania 5 CD), the next single is most likely "One More Night", but it is not for sure, until it is announced.

Actually, isn't the next German single probably "Ready For Love?" In Canada it may be "One More Night" but nothing says that.

It is already known that the German and Canadian singles are both Ready For Love. It already has airplay in Canada, and is being released in Germany in a few weeks. The NEXT single after Ready For Love in Canada is probably One More Night since it was on a station CD, and it may also be a single in Germany, where it is being released on the EP containing Ready For Love and Love Again. --numark 2002 (not at home)

Does cascada really do Adult contemporary?

I don't think that cascada does Adult contemporary. I know that she does Dance/Trance, but not adult comtemporary... What do you think? tsyoshi

Cascada's Candlelight Mix of ETWT is considered Adult Contemporary.

Who deleted the Music video?

Who deleted the music video section? it was quite useful for the poeple who wanted to listen the Cascada's music! Michael Houang 03:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Anyways, I added it back yesterday. PLEASE DO NOT DELETE! Michael Houang 18:37, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

AGAIN, WHO DELETED THE MUSIC VIDEOS?!?! Michael Houang 00:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

They are in violated of WP:COPYRIGHT. if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States (Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry [1]). Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors. --Neon white 05:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia isnot a storage database, wheatear audio, or video.Special Utilizator $ (talk) 03:53, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Penny Arcade mentions Cascada

Penny-Arcade mentioned Cascada in their web comic today 1/3/07: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/01/03 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.28.53.107 (talk) 17:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

Pronunciation

The IPA pronunciation is how Wikipedia lists all pronunciations. Royalbroil ^T : C 13:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

which was wrong, pretty sure it's kæˈskādə. --Neon white 03:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The two previous "sources" are both dead and of the two archived versions, only one is avaiable in writing; there is nothing to hear there. Anyway, if "listen to this interview" counts as a source, there is this and this and this, which all contain [kʌˈskɑːdʌ]. Str1977 ^(talk) 00:47, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Waterfall: Essential Dance Remix Collection

Should releases like Waterfall: Essential Dance Remix Collection but included in this page?

I heard a single from it on Pandora and found the full cd at Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Waterfall-Essential-Dance-Remix-Collection/dp/B000G73UHC

I am new with WIKIs so I did not want to add or edit the page myself. Thanks for any input or suggestions!

The guideline is BE BOLD. Please add your changes, and someone can fix them or remove them if they are inappropriate. I can't think of a reason why someone would remove one of their collections from the article. Royalbroil ^T : C 13:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I would consider Waterfall a compilation, and do not think it should be on the page. Hasbone 21:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Collaborations Section

The Collaborations section is extremely awkward in its readability and logical sense. I'm not disputing the validity of the content, but how it's structured makes for a difficult, confusing, and bordering-on-pointless read. I'm on the verge of vaping it and distributing the content into other locations in the article, or into the linked articles. Anyone care to voice opinions? -- HawkeAnyone 17:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay...

This talk page is a mess, by the way. I was just reading through it and I had absolutely no idea what was being discussed at times. ANYWAY, this article really needs the exact chart positions (WITH CITATIONS). I just finished editing some grammatical problems in the articleand I noticed that that needs to be done, and I am definitely no the person to do it. AmandaWins 14:22, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

genre

I would rather call Cascada Eurotrance than Eurodance (even if its not a mega big biffrence, i belive Cascada is much more "Advacned" and trance like than most eurodance so trance is a better term), so i chanced it^^ Kitten!meow 21:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

--Clearly you don't have a clue about emd genres, so do everyone a favor and don't edit genres. -204.210.80.93 02:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

To the above comment, Cascada have been representing trance through many countries (be it their sigles are on a trance complication albums), so it is only fair to say Cascada are Eurotrance as well. The group even say they have added trance elements (Natalie states in interviews). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryansc113 (talk • contribs) 22:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This is incorrect, their music is not trance, it isnt even close. They play dance music and occasionaly house. Compare them to say ATB or Armin van Buuren. We don't represent what singers say, especially ones that dont contribute to the music. --neonwhite user page talk 15:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree. Fine, their not trance as ATB, or Ultrabeat for that matter, but they defiently do not produce house music. Many people do associate Cascada with trance (the synths they use) and some of their singles are more 'trancey' then others (Compare Everytime We Touch and Miracle. Miracle is more trance. Compare What Hurts The Most and Reason. Reason is more trance). For me personally, being a dance music fan myself, I consider Cascada to use trance in their own style (I refer to it as "poppy trance", even if there is no such thing). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryansc113 (talk • contribs) 17:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Some of there songs have been house music. Ultrabeat aren't trance either, they are mostly known as Bouncy techno. I cannot hear anything in Cascada's tracks that suggest amything to do with trance. If anything it's more influenced by Hi-NRG and Makina. --neonwhite user page talk 01:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Cascada's sound is similar to the group's peers in the German Hands Up music scene. Please listen to others in this category - Special D., Scooter, Blumchen, etc. (I picked the most popular as examples, NOT the best; don't get on me about it...). i agree that Eurodance is an acceptable super-class for Cascada's work, but I stress that Hands Up is far more descriptive (much the same way as HipHop/RnB can often be described as Pop, but it surely has a character distinct from 'Pop'). Rgs258 (talk) 19:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

• Rhapsody MP3 lists them under the "House" genre, but it doesn't have a Eurodance category. Personally, I have trouble distinguishing between the different electronic dance music sub-genres. They certainly don't sound anything like Daft Punk. --JHP (talk) 08:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

| wont argue. Cascada is dance, Eurodance, and ATB-like or DJ Janou, or trance have nada with female/eurodance bands of late 90s. Who has a photo of Natalie Horler behind a dubbing desk , or at a turntable ? She sings using only her voice, as you may read in the article : " lead singer" Special Utilizator $ (talk) 03:58, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:B000A6CLGK.01. SS500 SCLZZZZZZZ .jpg

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Actually, it is really only in Germany where they are called trance, but here in the US, they are widely considered dance with a few of their songs house. Cprice1000 24:20 July 14,2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cprice1000 (talk • contribs) 05:21, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Everytime we touch cover.jpg

Image:Everytime we touch cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Citations

i cited and fixed nearly all of the chart positions. The ones that have citations are now correct. could somebody please help me find the last few that I havent? - tylerhuyser —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tylerhuyser (talk • contribs) 14:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Mistake somewhere

ok, according to this article Natalie Horler born in 1981. in this article under the "Early Years (2004-2005)" section says "When Natalie Horler was 17, she was doing studio work for various DJs". it's impossible that she was 17 in that period of time so there is a mistake either in this article or in the other one 13:24, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The early years were 2007 when she had released the first single. What work she`d done fades to her first release. Special Utilizator $ (talk) 04:00, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Eurodance vs Handsup

Cacada is to young/slow for Eurodance

That Music called Hands Up a mixed genre of Dance and other Techno Music

Eurodance is faster 180 bpm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.184.18.174 (talk) 12:10, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

About the picture

She's fat. 91.155.184.175 (talk) 16:26, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Someone add a better picture please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.125.129.176 (talk) 07:12, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Can someone put a better picture than that in the infobox? It's blurry and it looks like it's been zoomed in from a distance. Zadora13 (talk) 21:37, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

The 'King' of dance music

"Manians sound is distinct and he is often labelled as the 'King' of dance music"

The King Of Dance Music? Who wrote this, his record label? Also, his sound is far from distinct, hence most of his tracks end up on Clubland cds, they all have a similar sound. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.118.22 (talk) 15:47, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

All Djs have a distinct sound when working with electronic devices. | suggest to avoid any comments for creditted work on the album to individual articles on each item. This way the article on Cascada will keep to a slim body and only on main Natalie Horler work.Special Utilizator $ (talk) 04:05, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Gaga?/Spears?

The Media section has the following quote: "due to a recent shift in style towards that of Lady Gaga and Britney Spears". What does this even mean? Where exactly does this conclusion and analysis come from, as I think it is opinion rather than fact? Please review. Atouraya (talk) 11:04, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

It's basically a summary of the review by Digital Spy. Opinions are fine as long as their source is obvious and the review is used in context. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 13:48, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Original name Cascade

"Originally called Cascade until legal conflicts forced them to change their name" Anyone have more information about this, could they please add it to the wiki? Interested in learning about the legal conflicts. That's the first sentence in: http://www.pandora.com/music/artist/cascada Aequitarum Custos (talk) 22:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

They were threatened by Kaskade (house DJ active since 2001). Problem is, this is music legend and concrete sources are hard to find. Some of the early releases of "Miracle" actually have "Cascade" printed on them. (http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1374327) "Cascada" means waterfall in Spanish. 123.243.236.11 (talk) 01:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Kaskade is the commercial effort of producers Janou & Manian to make themselves known, and pass along as musicians. Forgive me, but DJ has no music status. Caskada is a single person, as you may see on the Blood on the Dancefloor-CD cover, as simple as thatSpecial Utilizator $ (talk) 03:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Pyromania

How come Pyromania hasn't got it's own page or anything? It's their new single premiered on a German radio station the other day.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robinsimpson1992 (talk • contribs) 16:13, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Why has EVERYTHING to do with a forth album/new single been removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.126.242 (talk) 08:16, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Chart Positions

How come many of the chart positions have been removed?? The US Dance Airplay chart positions are gone along with many others such as the Canadian Chart positions. Cascada has been #1 on US Dance Airplay chart 3 times and this should definitely be included since this is the chart that most of her singles chart on first. It used to be there, then I added it again once it was taken off but it was taken off again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.60.103 (talk) 14:08, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

First you may want to fill in an article on us dance airply (dd.mm.yyyy), with a date input in the round paranthesis. Who does know the chart you talk about ?

Greatest Hits

http://www.take2.co.za/music-cascada-greatest-hits-cd-4849452.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cprice1000 (talk • contribs) 14:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Is this Night Nurse?

Is this clip (called 'Cascada - Night Nurse (TBA Remix)') really a remix of the upcoming single 'Night Nurse'? Or is it a fake? It sounds very much like Cascada, but I do not know. 85.166.240.46 (talk) 20:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC) (link removed to comply with talk page standards) Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 20:52, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

By the way, it looks like Cascada themselves have released an album cover for this new single. 85.166.240.46 (talk) 20:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

36 Million Copys?

You got to be kidding,they sold around 6 Million Copys. The first 2 Albums sold 4 Million copys worldwide,so its absolutly impossible that "Evacuate the Dancefloor" sold 32 Million Copys! Which is 32 x (US)Platinum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.203.136.140 (talk) 15:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Nowhere does it say that "Evacuate the Dancefloor" sold 36 million copies. It says that during their entire career, sales of all singles have reached 36 million worldwide. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 17:11, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes I know but it says 14 Million Albums and 36 million Single which is absolutly impossible!!! These numbers are totally made up,there is not even a source for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.65.208.160 (talk) 19:41, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. In America, downloads of individual songs greatly outpace album sales. The source is another story. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 20:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Make a article of Natalie Horlier

Could you please make a article of Natalie Horlier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CPGirlAJ (talk • contribs) 20:43, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Cascada/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

why is cascada everywhere else a german band, but in the english version it is a swedish band? the members of the band are german. even the british press is saying it's a german trio. btw...natalie horler herself says she considers the band to be "international". Cascada travelled across Europe. It is not a band it is a singer with an unusual name. You may see the picture displays only one person, true ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Special Utilizator $ (talk • contribs) 03:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Last edited at 03:44, 3 March 2011 (UTC). Substituted at 11:00, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071022065235/http://www.toazted.com/playinterview/2335/Video-Interview-with-Cascada.html to http://www.toazted.com/playinterview/2335/Video-Interview-with-Cascada.html
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071022065235/http://www.toazted.com/playinterview/2335/Video-Interview-with-Cascada.html to http://www.toazted.com/playinterview/2335/Video-Interview-with-Cascada.html
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070514054500/http://musique.ados.fr:80/interviews/cascada-interview-video_article3402.html to http://musique.ados.fr/interviews/cascada-interview-video_article3402.html
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080228164216/http://www.worldmusicawards.com/files/Final-Press-Release-WMA-2007.doc to http://www.worldmusicawards.com/files/Final-Press-Release-WMA-2007.doc

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External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Cascada. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081206012613/http://www.cascadamusic.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5&start=75 to http://www.cascadamusic.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5&start=75
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081205235616/http://www.cascadamusic.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 to http://www.cascadamusic.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

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This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:22, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Cascada. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120318003329/http://www.promiflash.de/cascada-tanzt-sich-in-den-summer-of-love-12031640.html to http://www.promiflash.de/cascada-tanzt-sich-in-den-summer-of-love-12031640.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080117222306/http://www.european-border-breakers.eu/2008_winners.html to http://www.european-border-breakers.eu/2008_winners.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:37, 2 December 2017 (UTC)