Talk:Breakdancing

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Comment

This should have been moved to "breaking (dance)'", not "b-boying". Moronic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.172.214.70 (talk) 01:40, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

B-boying is the original name of the style; it was called "breaking" or "breakdancing" by mainstream media.

#!/bin/DokReggar -talk 06:41, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Not what the article says. "Breakdancing" is the invented term; breaking is the "b" in "b-boying". 70.172.214.70 (talk) 05:00, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually, "break" is the "b" in "b-boying". 211.181.131.34 (talk) 11:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Because that difference is vast. 72.200.151.13 (talk) 22:45, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

70.172.214.70 please don't be rude by referring to the article's title as "moronic". Considering there were four different discussions all at different times and the end result was to keep the article titled "b-boying", there must have been a good reason for it. Not to mention that—according to the article—dancers like Crazy Legs and Popmaster Fabel who are pioneers of this style called it "b-boying" from the beginning. Are they "moronic" as well? Another fact according to the article: even the (American Heritage) dictionary says that a b-boy is "A man or boy who engages in b-boying." Are all the scholars who wrote that dictionary "moronic". Just because the term isn't to your liking doesn't mean it's wrong... or moronic. 37.188.122.55 (talk) 09:45, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what the original name was, WP:COMMONNAME is very clear on this issue: "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural . . . Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources . . . Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred." --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

You're ignoring the part about reliable sources: "...[Wikipedia] prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources . . . Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred." 'B-boying' is the term that is most frequently used in reliable sources as demonstrated by the "Terminology" section. 37.188.122.55 (talk) 12:47, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Breaking is what it is called at the Olympics. This is what the name of the article should be. 2601:245:8200:AE90:ADCB:3790:C73B:BAE4 (talk) 22:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

WTF, Its called breakdancing

Seriously guys, in the mid I 2000ths did some breakdancing. Never heard the term B-boying. I'm pretty sure this is bullshit. The Google trends speak for themselves! http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=breakdancing, B-boying&cmpt=q--Frozenport (talk) 02:43, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree, I was equally confused about why breakdancing is redirecting to B-boying (a term I have never heard before) when searching for an article on breakdancing. --Jarekt (talk) 16:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Frozenport (talk · contribs) how can you be so "sure"? Don't you think it's a little arrogant for you to choose to remain oblivious to the legitimacy of this term when (1) you didn't start practicing the dance until a good 30 years after both the dance and the term were created and (2) the b-boying article has a very well referenced terminology section that justifies the article's title. Is there something you know that a b-boy pioneer like Crazy Legs doesn't know? The references are right there and he is quoted. Did you actually read a book on b-boying like Foundation for your research? Or did you just rely on Google? Google Trends will tell you how often a term is used because it reflects what is popular i.e. pop culture, but Google Trends will not and cannot tell you whether or not a term is valid i.e. authentic/correct, so your link doesn't actually prove that it's bullsh*t; it just shows that 'breakdancing' is used more often which is already stated in the second paragraph of the article. It's okay if you've never heard the term before. That's the beauty of a free encyclopedia. Speaking of free knowledge, History of hip-hop dance#Terminology also talks about the breakdancing/b-boying debate and that section is well referenced too. I challenge you to edify yourself. 37.188.122.55 (talk) 10:42, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the emphasis in the lead on original vs. common use goes against our article naming guidelines (see WP:COMMONNAME). ‑‑xensyria^T 02:55, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

DJ Kool Herc took the word "b-boy" from the Bronxdale Boys. Bronxdale Houses is the housing projects in southern Bronx where both breakdance and hiphop originated. jk2exp (talk) 12:47, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree with your statement. All the living Black Spade members that came out of the Bronxdale Projects claim that they coined the word “Bboy” to represent Bronxdale Boy. Dj Disco King Mario who co-founded the Black Spades with Peter Williams in 1970 did the 21 days of summer block parties in 1971 were Bam and Herc had attended before they ever put their own events together. This would suggest the word “Bboy” had its origins from the Black Spades and has no relevance to Breakdancing. 2600:6C50:647F:C11F:ADE5:A466:1B6B:658D (talk) 06:37, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Gender inequality?

It is clear that "males are generally the predominant gender within breaking". That is not the same as "gender inequality". If this section must be retained, I suggest it be retitled "Female Breakdancers". I also suggest that the entire article be changed to "breakdancing", not "B-Boying" - that is a sexist term that is unknown outside the fraternity.Royalcourtier (talk) 06:06, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Or breaking (dance).

The dance itself is properly called "breaking" according to rappers such as KRS-One, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, and Darryl McDaniels of Run-DMC.[8]

72.200.151.13 (talk) 22:45, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

B-girl

For decades, "B-girl" has meant bar girl, a girl who is paid to get guys to buy her overpriced, watered-down drinks. The way it's being used here is a new meaning. There ought to be an article about the original term, and a disambiguation page. --Rosekelleher (talk) 21:33, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Female presence

The following comment was posted in the article, but probably should've been here on the talk page: --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Some do disagree with the amount of increasing females though, saying that they have hardly noticed a difference. "I as a BBoy, have been dancing for over 5 years now, but I have yet to see my fair share of female dancers at Jams. There may be only three or five girls who actually go out and dance at a Cypher, I've seen a couple of girls taking lessons, so the seed of female involvement is there, it's jut not as big of a boom as everyone says it is. I don't know how things are out in New York, but down here in Houston, it's still mostly Guys. I also disagree with firefly, Really the solution to getting more B-Girls isn't making women's only competitions, it's promoting things right. I think that Breaking is one thing that both men and women can be equally good at, and if you make a special separation for genders, then it won't get you anywhere good." -Geoffrey Park (South Texas B-Boy) — Preceding text originally posted on B-boying#Female presence (diff) by BBoy Geoffrey (talk⋅contribs) 14:57, 22 December 2014‎ (UTC)

These are just some general comments and uggestions for improving. (For the course above).

Neutrality? The Title Issue...“B-boying” is in fact reductive as a title; it could be “Breakdancing” or “Breakers” or “Breaking” with a sourced discussion of vernacular for those “immersed in hip hop culture.” It is reductive because it excludes female participants. Proven by the fact that all sources quoted in the chart are men, which is not balanced.

Relevancy...“A young street dancer performing acrobatic head spins was recorded by Thomas Edison in 1898.” (footnote 21); This is distracting and irrelevant if not contextualized. It is mentioned under "History"

Things missing that could be added/changed... • Clarity regarding the history of breaking could be made and information added. For example, it should probably be mentioned that the style formed in New York City; that it was a part of hip hop culture; that the style attracted Afrodiasporic youth of color – from the US and Caribbean countries – because of the socioeconomic/political history associated with these racial minorities in this location. • Perhaps a discussion of flow, layering, and rupture as characteristic properties of hip-hop culture more broadly • The “Female Presence” section of the page is proportionally lacking compared to other sections, and I do not think this is because there is no female breakers; this discussion could be expanded to include who the “critiques” mentioned are and how women “have begun to play a larger role in the breaking scene.” Also, there should be some discussion of the fact that they have always been on the scene and who those women are

Some notes about references and footnotes... • The second two sentences in the top section; regarding the spread of breakdancing and the variation across the medium in terms of style have no reference • The second paragraph in the top section discusses the term “breakdance” versus the term “b-boying,” again without reference. The reference to preferred terms (also in this paragraph and in the “Terminology” section) is never linked to a source/ attributed to someone(s). • There are no references in the second paragraph of the “History”; in the latter 3 paragraphs of “Dance elements”; in “B-boy styles”; in “Power versus style” • The “Females in hip-hop culture” link under female presence does not take you to a page relevant to this article, or even to the words linked; “Hip hop models” and females in hip-hop are not synonymous

JulesCapone (talk) 16:38, 5 February 2015 (UTC)JulesCapone

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Year Invented

I think the article is wrong on when it was invented. It says 2005 in the little box on the left yet the 1980's in the article header. I am new to Wiki editing can someone resolve this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.133.84.5 (talk) 05:52, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

If you read 'The Way of All Flesh' by Samuel Butler (written 1873-1884) the narrator refers to a farcical play in which he has Bishop Cranmer, Sir Thomas More, Henry the Eighth, Catherine of Aragon and Thomas Cromwell ' and had made them dance a breakdown'. Annotations in an edition that I don't have now it said that at the time it was a dance attributed to Africans. 82.4.241.172 (talk) 10:47, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

"b-boy attitude"?

This part had me curious: "as long as the dancer maintains cleanliness, form, and the b-boy attitude, theoretically anything can be toprock." (emphasis mine)

Could someone knowledgeable enlarge on this "b-boy attitude"? It seems an important part of the culture to me, and is barely touched upon in the article yet. --Martinroell (talk) 10:32, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

It's pretty much the idea that you can create your own moves and your own variations of already existing moves, essentially bringing something fresh to the scene.Funkyman99 (talk) 04:18, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Commonname

This article title is a clear violation of Commonname. I understand the etymology of the alternative title, but there is a gross discrepancy between what some within a fairly small and insular community may call it, and what it's called in the greater culture. We don't have to like or agree with the term breakdancing to objectively assess the relative use of the two terms. There is no factually "correct" title (i.e. breakdancing is not incorrect, some prefer b-boying as a matter of opinion/subjective choice.). I think it's perfectly fine to reflect that in an etymology section, or in the lede, etc. However, to choose the subjective infrequently used word ahead of the very widely recognized term is elitist, intended or not, and is against not only the policy but spirit of how wiki pages are named.12.11.127.253 (talk) 14:32, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Not quite sure what you mean by a fairly small and insular community, considering that most people who breakdance refer to it as b-boy and know it as b-boy, especially considering that the origin of the term was b-boy, not breakdancing. Again not sure what you mean by infrequently used word and elitist, because most people in the breakdancing scene refer to it as b-boy.Funkyman99 (talk) 04:15, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Isn't it actually elistist to call it "breakdancing"; after all, the journalists were the intellectuals who created the term and spread it to the masses. 108.171.130.166 (talk) 20:44, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

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 Done @ Special:Diff/752283991. —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 12:51, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Female Recognition

Females may not have a dominant position in the realm of breakdancing. However, recognition should be given to women who have a presence such as Alaska native Bri McMillen also known as "B Girl Snap One". Sage Cadence (talk) 14:16, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Well Done article

I thought the article displayed good relevance and attachment to the overall topic. As well the article did not show any too close paraphrasing.

Good Job.

Hanz-francis (talk) 23:41, 13 December 2016 (UTC) Hanz Francis

Literature edit revert (diff 761041389)

@MrOllie: Hello; why was the edit regarding the French book reverted, as it has the same content type as the Polish one just above? #!/bin/DokReggar -talk 15:20, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Good call, I removed that one too. These things should have some basic level of demonstrated importance, preferably by linking to an existing Wikipedia article. - MrOllie (talk)

Works for me; thanks for the reply! #!/bin/DokReggar -talk 16:04, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

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Requested move 19 May 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. (non-admin closure) Crow^Caw 19:21, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

---

B-boying → Breakdancing – The common name of the article is Breakdancing (per WP:COMMONNAME. B-boying is jargon (WP:Jargon) is not commonly used by the general populace.) Civciv5 (talk) 21:22, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support The article itself acknowledges that breakdancing is the most common name: "Instead of the term b-boying (break-boying), the mainstream media promoted the artform as breakdancing, causing many to only know it as such." — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 14:15, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support per WP:JARGON. The current title is less common in reliable sources (see here) and could be seen to exclude b-girls. —  AjaxSmack  23:49, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support per nom and others. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:10, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

---

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RfC: Page title

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No consensus.Winged Blades of Godric^{On leave} 10:17, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

---

What should be the title of this article? Refreshed Ibadibam (talk) 05:15, 6 August 2017 (UTC), originally started by Ibadibam (talk) 21:26, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Background

This discussion is being held under RfC because previous move discussions failed to generate sufficient participation or clear consensus. Thanks to Crow for suggesting this venue. For previous discussions on this question, see:

• Talk:Breakdance#Merger proposal
• Talk:Breakdance#Merging with "Bboy"
• Talk:Breakdance#Breaking
• /Archive 1#Article title
• /Archive 1#move to Breakdance
• /Archive 1#Move to breaking
• #Comment
• #WTF, Its called breakdancing
• #Commonname
• #Requested move 19 May 2017

Ibadibam (talk) 21:26, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Survey

• Breaking – Even if breakdancing is more common, it is still a misnomer (see the "inaccurate names" clause of WP:COMMONNAME). B-boying, being a gendered term, doesn't sufficiently encompass all performers of this genre. Breaking is accurate, recognizable and universal. Ibadibam (talk) 21:26, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
• Breaking (dance) - I agree on all points presented by Ibadibam (talk · contribs); breaking is more appropriate than b-boying or breakdancing. //Gbern3 (talk) 16:41, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
• Breakdancing - As it is universally known - WP:COMMONNAME. Meatsgains (talk) 01:15, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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History

I think the history section needs some cleanup. The obscure references to dancing in the 19th century is clearly not relevant to this article which is a about a particular style that began in 1970's New York. Semiotexting (talk) 20:18, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Olympic breakdancing

Breakdancing will be debuting at the Paris Olympics in 2024. Nate-Dawg (talk) 04:53, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Performance and Social Change

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2022 and 23 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Drewslash (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Strawberry2302 (talk) 16:23, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

To-Do List

- Link to DJ Kool Herc in the History section.

- Link to the "Break (music)" page in the History section when breaks are introduced.

- Under the History section, add "See also: History of hip-hop dance" section with a corresponding link to that page

- Change "Some major competitions" title to "Major Competitions"

- Add citation in Major Competitions section to (https://www.redbull.com/us-en/theredbulletin/genesis-of-competitive-breaking) Drewslash (talk) 14:53, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

History

The notions that falsely linked the artform to 'Rob Roy on the Baltic', which is information no founding breakdancer would have come across nor had access to, should be removed. If you Google Giesse Harad Polska or 'salmon district dance' not only is there no info in relation to breaking but virtually none at all. Also, a black and white picture of a teenage boy doing downwork in Moscow is misleading; breaking started in the Bronx and photos under its history section should reflect that. ConstantKay (talk) 17:56, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

First, Google hits are not a substitute for research. Second, the history should go over precursors or independent reinventions whenever those are available - History of radio, for example, goes over many developments that took place before Marconi's wireless telegraph, as it should. MrOllie (talk) 18:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

There is no source linked in the article or any I could find that connects the passage to breakdancing though. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:26, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

There is ZERO research that suggests the 'salmon district dance' found in that novel is a precursor to breakdancing. That's false information that borders on a lie that fundamentally robs the artform's innovators of their rightful credit. ConstantKay (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

More proof:

“ Interestingly, elements of the art of breakdancing were developed by African slaves in the United States in the early nineteenth century.”

Considering the creators of the art form descended from African slaves, there’s an obvious through-line between them, performers like Conrad “Little Buck” Buckner in the 1950s, and the inner city youth of the Bronx in the 1960s and 1970s.

There is no proof that breakdancing has any connect to something found in an 1867 John McGregor novel. Its inclusion under the history section is a substitute for the truth, and exacerbates the narrative that information on Wikipedia can’t be trusted.

Please strongly consider correcting it.

Not to mention, for the sake of accuracy, the picture of the boy practicing “down rock” should be someone from Bronx during that time period. That is where its history started and the image should reflect that. ConstantKay (talk) 21:20, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Post information was taken from Soren Marc, who is a Librarian researcher at UW-Madison Library with a strong focus on the birth of Breakdancing.

1. Obie West led the semi-professional Royal Koso Dance Ensemble at the Bronx River Neighborhood Center from 1972-1976. The group, whose members included members of the Black Spades and “youth cadre” peers of Afrika Bambaataa, had a special interest in the gymnastic styles of the Peulh acrobats of the National Dance Company of Senegal.

2. When interviewed in Portuguese, Jelon Vieira takes credit for sharing capoeira moves with bboys starting in the Bronx in 1975.

3. Jelon Vieria and Loremil Machado performed capoeira to jazz accompaniment at a Manhattan nightclub every week for several years in the late 70s/early 80s. Their performance is preserved in a 1979 TV feature.

4. Ken Swift remembers seeing capoeira at least three times in the late 70s, including it being done by a kid named “Kevin” at dance parties at St. Gregory’s on the Upper West Side. Popmaster Fabel remembers a “cool brother” possibly named “Amani” leading a capoeira showcase at the Roxy in June 1982. Michael Holman says that members of the NYCB were also aware of capoeira in 1982, although he says they did not consider it “funky” enough to imitate.

The evidence would suggest that Breakdancing movements were created by other disciplines that converged into New York in the early 70s which ultimately inspired the dance. 96.41.116.53 (talk) 19:42, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

The article also says that the dance only started to concretely exist in the 70s. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:47, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Dance Moves

The reference to “power moves” needs to be removed. It should state footwork, air moves, top rocks, freezes and drops. The word power move is so nebulous that it can represent multiple aspects of breakdancing without specific reference to the movement itself. As an example you can do a windmill with power or you can do a six step with power, and both of them would fall under the same category Power moves, even though they have completely opposing aspects that differentiate the moves from each other. 96.41.116.53 (talk) 20:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: AFST 205 Fall 23

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 31 August 2023 and 12 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Anyante1 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Anyante1 (talk) 14:10, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Music section

The first paragraph from the section called "Music" has seemingly been completely plagiarized from the Breakdancing/B-Boying/Breaking article on wordpress.com. As i was going through that source, I noticed that almost ever word was the exact same as that on the Wikipedia article. I have elected to remove that paragraph and re-write it so that it uses that source but it no longer plagiarized. Anyante1 (talk) 15:02, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

How do you know it wasn't the wordpress site that copied the text from here? MrOllie (talk) 15:06, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Added to the Olympics 2024

Would be nice if someone wrote about the inclusion of break dancing as a competition in the Olympics 2024. Algotr (talk) 08:13, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Health effects

This article was recently published: Doctors Discover a New Medical Condition Unique to Breakdancers that details current and previous research on injuries and conditions relevant to breaking. Probably worthwhile adding a section on this or even writing a "health effects of" article. Reconrabbit 01:47, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Created by African-Americans and Puerto Ricans?

There have been repeated attempts over the last several months to eliminate and/or downplay the influence of Puerto Ricans on the creation of breaking, especially in the wording of the opening paragraph: "...is a style of street dance originated by African Americans and Puerto Ricans in the Bronx."

There are sources in this article that support this viewpoint, as well as one or two that assert it was created by African-Americans only. In the interest of maintaining an encyclopedic neutral point of view (WP:NPOV), I believe this wording should remain, but I invite any discussion of additional sources. Rift (talk) 19:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC) Rift (talk) 19:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

The language used in this context is neither neutral nor historically accurate, as it distorts the factual contributions of different ethnic groups to breaking (breakdancing). The assertion that Latinos co-created or created breaking largely stems from the earliest article on the subject, authored by Sally Banes. However, Banes lacked primary sources and based her work predominantly on the Rock Steady Crew, omitting interviews with the original African American pioneers. Conversely, Steve Hager, a colleague of Banes, conducted extensive interviews with early pioneers and concluded that breaking was created by African Americans, with Latinos joining the movement later. Hager's findings, however, are often disregarded by hip-hop historians, likely because they challenge the narrative of breaking as a multicultural phenomenon.

Even early Latino breakdancers acknowledged the foundational role of African Americans in the development of breaking. For instance, in a 1996 letter to a hip-hop magazine, Richard "Crazy Legs" Colón criticized the publication for neglecting African American founders, writing: "Why didn’t you interview any of the Zulu Kings or the Nigga Twins or even Kool Herc, who was the original B-boy that would’ve dropped more bombs than the U.S. did on Iraq?” Despite this earlier acknowledgment, Crazy Legs has more recently shifted his stance, echoing narratives that overstate Latino contributions.

This shift may be influenced by a sense of ethnic entitlement or a desire to create a more inclusive narrative. However, acknowledging the pioneering role of African Americans does not necessitate the exclusion of other groups who contributed to the evolution and preservation of breaking culture. Therefore, it is more historically accurate and appropriate to recognize that African Americans created breaking while also honoring the significant contributions of other ethnic communities that sustained and enriched the culture over time. Fillmore86 (talk) 21:05, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

are often disregarded by hip-hop historians - it is not up to Wikipedia to fix the errors of hip-hop historians. Your comment paints an interesting picture, but it is ultimately an instance of WP:OR and misplaced on this encyclopedia. We're here to summarize what the sources have to say, not to second-guess them. MrOllie (talk) 01:40, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Since dances are never birthed on a specific day or by a specific person, we'll never be able to say exactly who created breaking. Therefore, we can discuss the idea of modifying the wording to something less definitive; for example, something like ...is a style of street dance grew out of African American and Puerto Rican youth culture in the Bronx. Rift (talk) 01:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)