Talk:Bonaire League

Requested move 22 February 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus. After more than a month and two relists, see no general agreement to make these changes at this time. As is usual with no-consensus outcomes, editors can strengthen their arguments and try again in a few months to garner consensus for these renames. Kudos to editors for your input, and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover) Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  17:09, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

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• Bonaire League → Bonaire Divishon Honor
• 2018–19 Bonaire League → 2018–19 Bonaire Divishon Honor

"League" is too vague. Follow name "Divishon Honor" used by official Bonaire FA page: [1] [2]. Chanheigeorge (talk) 09:44, 22 February 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Xain36 {talk} 17:04, 1 March 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. B dash (talk) 13:42, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 10:04, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment - NFT calls it Kampionato. GiantSnowman 10:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment See official FFB table [3]. Chanheigeorge (talk) 10:18, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment Can't tell the common name. "Divishon Honor" is the official name of the league, and not easily confuse with other, such as Division of Honour (is it another invented translation?) and División de Honor de Rugby. May or may not need to add bracket (Bonaire), which we don't know the demonym form of Bonaire . Not enough information on the common name of the league in native language, nor in English. May be rsssf have a clue, but i don't wish to google it myself. Matthew hk (talk) 11:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
• Comment RSSSF also calls it Kampionato. JTtheOG (talk) 11:41, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment My experiences with RSSSF is that while you can trust their results, they are not that updated with league names. So "Kampionato" could be the name of the league a few years back, but currently the official Bonaire FA is calling the league "Divishon Honor". Chanheigeorge (talk) 12:14, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

I would Support Kampionato as the new article title. It fit the WP:CRITERIA as known common name . We don't use official name usually (see WP:officialname) , unless official name and common name overlap. Matthew hk (talk) 15:32, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Also, seem Kampionato is unique enough. May be a creole version of "campionato " ? Matthew hk (talk) 15:36, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Doesn't Kampionato just mean "Championship"? I wonder if it is unique enough. There are also other sports played in Bonaire, such as baseball and volleyball, and football may not be the dominant sports in that territory. Chanheigeorge (talk) 04:56, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

I would say, you did not provide any source to prove "Divishon Honor" is the common name, and then you just rebut me with the logic on "Kampionato" may be not for football only. So, by the same logic, Bonaire can have other sport league name after "Divishon Honor". In fact, "Division Honor/Honour" in other country, can refer to other sport, just like División de Honor de Rugby. Matthew hk (talk) 12:07, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

After some googling I would Support Kampionato (Bonaire) per RSSSF. Adding bracket for disambiguation due to existence of Kampionato Antiano for Dutch Antilles (RSSSF) and Kampionato Curaçao (RSSSF) Matthew hk (talk) 14:29, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

And then in Wiktionary, an user suggested the correct spelling is "Kampeonato" with e (compare to Spanish en:Wiktionary:campeonato), and the spelling with e was used in a news article/press release on baseball league. [4] (despite the same site also used "Kampionato" in another article) Well, it seem need more time to figure out what spelling and common name it should be. Matthew hk (talk) 18:31, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

These are some results I found by Google: Pages that use "Bonaire Kampionato" (or a combination of these words): RSSSF [5]; a few international sites which report on leagues around the world: [6] [7]; some site about Football Manager: [8]; a table tennis tournament in Bonaire: [9]; a volleyball tournament in Bonaire: [10]. Pages that use "Bonaire Divishon Honor" (or a combination of these words): Official Bonaire FA: [11] [12]; WDBSports (I think it is a page covering sports in the Dutch Caribbean): [13]; a blog about Bonaire football: [14]. I could not find any other sports tournament called something similar to "Bonaire Divishon Honor", so I have to assume the competition name "Divishon Honor" is unique enough inside Bonaire. If we are also including international coverage (which is scant) when considering how the article name should be, I can kind of accept "Bonaire Kampionato" or ""Kampionato Bonaire", because at least you can find some sites calling the league by such name. But "Kampionato (Bonaire)" just sounds preposterous as some kind of make-up name, as the word "Kampionato" is 1. not the official name used by the authorities; 2. not unique enough for identification given other sports in Bonaire; 3. a non-proper noun that can be used in a sentence similar to the word "championship", as in "the team won in the championship" today. By your argument, we may as well rename the article of the competition whose final is playing tonight to "League Cup (England)", since that's probably the most common way to refer to the competition. Chanheigeorge (talk) 13:50, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

The problem is lack of demonym form of Bonaire. For bracket it can be some sort of standard disambiguation that can be used with Template:PAGENAMEBASE. We know the demonym form of England, which is English, but not for Bonaire. For Netherlands Antilles, we have Antillean in English and "Antiano" used by probably native speaker in RSSSF webpage. Matthew hk (talk) 14:29, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

"Bonairean"? "Boneriano", as in "Federashon Futbol Boneriano" [15]? Or alternatively, a few Caribbean league pages use the initials of their FA instead of demonym, e.g., GFA Premier League. So something like "FFB Divishon Honor" or "FFB Kampionato" would at least pass the uniqueness test. Chanheigeorge (talk) 14:46, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Chanheigeorge, you might also move 2018–19 articles, I have added it to the list. But I have not decided to move to which page Hhkohh (talk) 01:37, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

• move to Kampionato (Bonaire) and 2018–19 Kampionato (Bonaire) separately per Matt and RSSSF. Honor will confuse readers Hhkohh (talk) 15:11, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

@Hhkohh: Why would "Honor" confuse readers? We also have the article Aruban Division di Honor. Chanheigeorge (talk) 13:02, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Chanheigeorge, honor means something that makes you proud in general. Readers may think this article telling me the league (such as champions and so on) Hhkohh (talk) 22:26, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

@Hhkohh: It is just part of the name, like "Premier" in "Premier League" or "Super" in "Super League". Are those leagues with those words particular more "Premier" or more "Super" than leagues without those words? In Wikipedia, We do not make judgments on whether the name is appropriate or not based on what words in the name may mean to ourselves or some people, we report what the media reports the name to be. Chanheigeorge (talk) 05:27, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Chanheigeorge, wow, we need WP:COMMONNAME not just WP:OFFICIALNAME. In most cases, commonname is also an official name. But, why we call Liga Super Malaysia is Malaysia Super League, not Liga Super Malaysia? As Matt pointed out, apart from offical website, how many websites/source call the league as honor? But we can create honor redirect to here. Hhkohh (talk) 14:10, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

I have given some sources above, you can see them yourselves. There are sources that call the league "Bonaire Divishon Honor" (or a combination of these words), mostly from Bonaire. There are also sources that call the league "Bonaire Kampionato" (or a combination of these words), mostly from outside Bonaire. The league is simply not widely covered, so there are probably not a lot of other sources that we can find. There is also a source which calls it "FFB Divishon Honor" [16]. So basically we have to make a decision based on these few sources. So I think "Bonaire Divishon Honor", "FFB Divishon Honor", "Bonaire Kampionato", "Kampionato Bonaire" all work to a certain degree. I just don't think "Kampionato (Bonaire)" works, because that is not the official name of the league, and from outside the country, nobody is going to call that league "Kampionato" only. Chanheigeorge (talk) 15:05, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

@Matthew hk: do you have more comments here? Hhkohh (talk) 16:46, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

After asking Wiktionary (plus the spelling Kampeonato was also used for the baseball league from google search), I feel I am confused with the spelling.

"Bonaire Kampionato" may be not that grammatical correct in English (England Premier League verse English Premier League? not sure which one is more correct) but we usually pipe out the country after the first mention, so it is not that really matter, or even no need to mention country at all (e.g. La Liga despite there is many the "Liga", or just Serie A, which without doubt it is the Italian one instead of Campeonato Brasileiro Série A nor Serie A in other sport). E.g. in lede "X is an Bonairian footballer who plays for the Kampionato club Y.", unless it need to disambiguation with other Kampionato of the ABC islands, or the expat footballers who plays outside their native islands.

For "Divishon Honor", it was used by the official source, but the webpage of the FA of Bonaire , actually used iframe (the actual page was located in https://www.wdbsport.com/ffb-2/divishon-honor-bonaire/), thus "Divishon Honor - Bonaire" is an official name and may be also common name. Same site also have the usage of "Divishon Honor - Aruba".

So, I am not sure which new proposal is more suitable . I just think Bonaire League is a relic of WP:Use English. It was totally invented and unpopular term for the league, which insufficient English source to tell it is a common name. Matthew hk (talk) 08:18, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

After reading Matt comments and source given by Chanheigeorge, I still decide to move to Kampionato (Bonaire) and 2018–19 Kampionato (Bonaire), reason:

1. using common name should be higher priority than using English name because this is a league name.
2. Using () is clarifying other Kampionato titles
3. Only official website uses honor, so that is not a common name. But we need a common name Hhkohh (talk) 14:35, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Someone posting "use English" common name rationale but giving evidence for Bonaire national football team. Feel free to add Bonaire (football club) to alternative proposal but i am going to hidden the off-topic. Matthew hk (talk) 17:03, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

*Oppose "Bonaire Divishon Honor" does not appear to be in English. I'm guessing it's Papiamento. As far as I can tell, "Bonaire League" is the correct name in English, e.g. Bonaire on ESPN. Danielklein (talk) 14:15, 10 March 2019 (UTC) @Danielklein: It did not use "Bonaire League" in your source, just "Bonaire" , "Bonaire News and Scores - ESPN" or CONCACAF Nations League. Please point to specific page for alleged usage of "Bonaire League". Matthew hk (talk) 14:18, 10 March 2019 (UTC) (edit conflict) Also, not English (Papiamento) is not a valid reason: Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga, Veikkausliiga Campeonato Brasileiro Série A and many other were foreign language proper noun. Matthew hk (talk) 14:25, 10 March 2019 (UTC) I'm not suggesting an alternative name, just opposing the use of a non-English name that doesn't have sufficient citations. If someone finds a proper English name for the club, I'll support that. The article can't be called Bonaire, because that's the name of the country. Danielklein (talk) 14:23, 10 March 2019 (UTC) @Danielklein: So, which WP:CRITERIA is use English ? Matthew hk (talk) 14:25, 10 March 2019 (UTC) And "Bonaire League" had ZERO citation. Matthew hk (talk) 14:26, 10 March 2019 (UTC) Concacaf Nations League says the official name is "Bonaire". See WP:OFFICIAL: (paraphrasing) "In many cases using an official name as the title for the article is contrary to Wikipedia practice and policy." "Bonaire" conflicts with the country's name. If the foreign name is the WP:COMMONNAME in English, it should be used as the article title. Perhaps the best title is "Bonaire (football club)" or "Bonaire (soccer club)", unless sufficient evidence can be found that some other name is the English WP:COMMONNAME. Danielklein (talk) 14:36, 10 March 2019 (UTC) @Danielklein: Classic WP:BEFORE. (edit: it seem it is for Afd only 14:39, 10 March 2019 (UTC)) This article is about the domestic football league of Bonaire, which is similar to English Premier League. None of your proposal are valid Matthew hk (talk) 14:38, 10 March 2019 (UTC) Also, Please read stuff before commenting. CONCACAF Nations League, according to that article, " is an international football competition, to be contested by the senior men's national teams ", so it is irrelevant to this article which about domestic league. The national team article is located at Bonaire national football team and its article title is fine. Matthew hk (talk) 14:45, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

• @Chanheigeorge: the thread got messy now, but i am replying of your 24 February 2019 comment. But blogspot is not a reliable source, while zerozero either (See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/TheFinalBall, it had other domain such as zerozero and ceroacero) despite it used Kampionato Bonaire. Matthew hk (talk) 15:28, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
  • @Matthew hk: Since we are going with reliable sources only, I am going to make a list of sources that report on the league in Bonaire and cite what names they use. Anybody can freely add to the list, or dispute the reliability of any sources, or consider several of them to be one source only, but please state your reason so we can discuss. This is to help further the discussions on what name should we use for this league. Chanheigeorge (talk) 16:08, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

List of sources that report on league in Bonaire

1. FFB (Official Bonaire FA): "Divishon Honor" [17]
2. Wega di bala (Wdbsport.com will provide all news, gossips, league standing, transfers of soccer, baseball, softball, volleyball, basketball & futsal news of Curacao): "Divishon Honor" or "Divishon Honor Liga FFB" [18] [19]
3. RSSSF (The Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation (RSSSF) is an international organization dedicated to collecting statistics about association football): "Kampionato" [20] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chanheigeorge (talk • contribs) 2019-03-10T16:08:53 (UTC)

4. NFT.com used Kampionato as stated by user GS. Matthew hk (talk) 17:41, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

my own jabbish that rebutted myself. Feel free to view it by pressing the show button . Matthew hk (talk) 17:34, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

*Divishon Honor (Bonaire) (or alternatively Bonaire Divishon Honor) or Division Honor (Bonaire) (or alternatively Bonaire Division Honor) are potential titles. It is nightmare that "Bonairian" "dictionary" have somewhat meaningful google result (is it correct? [21][22]) while "Bonairean" "dictionary" did not have good result. Probably typo for the cat People of Bonairean descent "Divishon Honor" was used by secondary source (Wdbsport as "Divishon Honor - Bonaire", and it seem a English website, not sure it will detect and change language automatically or not) and primary source (in facebook and f-f-b.com ), despite the primary source f-f-b.com also used iframe to link the aforementioned Wdbsport while their facebook page was sharing the post by Wdbsport in facebookm instead of using the term directly). Since the correct demonym form is not able to determine (Oxford and Collins did not help) so it is not possible to move to Aruban Division di Honor format (but Wdbsport use Divishon Honor - Aruba, so "Division" is the real common name in English? not the spelling in proper noun Divishon, for Aruba ?) However, Wdbsport used "Division Honor Bonaire 17/18" for the goalscorer table in 2017–18 season. Since demonym can't be known , and the demonym would mostly be piped out anyway Divishon Honor (Bonaire) is seem safe enough for the current name pf the league and current season. But it still a mystery for the name of the league before renaming to Divishon Honor. Matthew hk (talk) 16:48, 10 March 2019 (UTC) Off-topic. RSSSF used "Division Honor" for Aruba in 1973 season. Matthew hk (talk) 16:48, 10 March 2019 (UTC) Have to strike-off some of my comment. f-f-b.com had an odd post WordPress Resources at SiteGround So either they officially host the site in wordpress, or someone else made a fans site for the football federation. Making the facebook page became the apparat primary source. Matthew hk (talk) 16:54, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support Kampionato Bonaire or anything form using Bonaire Kampionato . globalsportsarchive.com use just "Kampionato" but since there is many Kampionato in the Dutch Caribbean , seem better use the disambiguated form of "Kampionato" as article title. globalsportsarchive.com seem a reliable English source. Matthew hk (talk) 17:33, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Is there anything that can reasonably tell us the reliability of many of these "statistical" sites which report on international sports leagues? I sometimes do wonder about whether they are just copying information (including names) from one to another. Chanheigeorge (talk) 18:00, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

I used NFT.com 10 years ago as there is no good source available, turn out i feel they are less reliable due to no break down of match reports. For RSSSF, actually it was written by volunteer but yet the wiki editors think it is reliable. Soccerway is operated by a company and bought data from Opta. World football.net was also operated by company. For the globalsportsarchive.com , according to the primary source (their website), it is the partner of Pakistan Football Federation. Matthew hk (talk) 18:09, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I use RSSSF and soccerway, but I also know that they can be wrong sometimes so I don't blindly trust them, and if possible I always try to find a more reliable or official source, or at least compare between different sources to check for discrepancies. Chanheigeorge (talk) 18:15, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Yup, RSSSF was a consensus that it is reliable, but it seem they self-translated the name 上海嘉定城发博击足球俱乐部 to Shanghai Jiading City Development F.C.. But since not only RSSSF use Kampionato for this league, as well as Wdb Sport contradicted itself by the spelling of "Division", may be using the latter as common name is better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by matthew hk (talk • contribs) 2019-03-17T13:27:45 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.