Talk:Avatar: The Last Airbender/Archive 3

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Simlaries between this and Star Wars

1.Both star Mark Hamill 2.Luke's final trail was to beat Darth Vader. Aang's is to beat the Fire Lord 3.'Bad Guys' use lightning 4.Airbending is simlar to the force

Should this be added to the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NFAN3 (talk • contribs) 22:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

No, I don't think so. How would that help the article? -Sukecchi 22:19, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

There are a lot better similarities than those, trust me. But, unless they come as close as the current example in The Guru (to the point that it may as well be word for word) it shouldn't be added. It's way to easy to just add small similarities mostly because Star Wars follows the traditional styles of common myth as presented in Hero With A Thousand Faces. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 22:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The similarity to Star Wars mainly comes from the fact that both trace an archetypal cycle, not that the creators of avatar wanted to specifically hint at star wars (though, who knows, this might be their objective). While i agree that a section on similarities to star wars is unneed, a broader "how avatar fits into archetypal theory" could find its place in an wikipedia article. -(Y.krzepicki 03:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

Ooh, that's an interesting idea. I wish I had the time and background knowledge to research something like that. --Herald Alberich 03:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

There are a lot of similarities between Book 2 and The Empire Strikes Back revealed in The Guru and The Crossroads of Destiny. The Guru is essentially the same as Luke's training with Yoda. Note that Yoda and Obi Wan insist that Luke stay and finish his training rather than save his friends. Likewise, the guru insists that Aang stay and finish his mastering of the avatar state instead of going to save Katara. Also, at the end of both The Empire Strikes Back and Book 2 of Avatar, the main characters leave the invaded city in defeat with the city's leader. Sean Eberhard 20:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Should Appa have his own page?

The title here is self-explanatory: Should Appa have his own article? I mean, he had an entire episode. User:Kochdude388 01:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Err, that one is a tough one. Technically he could, but it would mostly be plot summary. Because he doesn't actually talk there isn't much to say about his personality or anything similar. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 02:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

• I don't see any reason why he shouldn't...Azula's got her own page, and Appa's probably had just as much of an impact on the series as she has. Although Appa doesn't say anything, there's a lot that can be drawn from his relations with the other characters, and there have easily been four episodes (The Chase, The Desert, Appa's Lost Days, and Lake Laogai) where a large portion of the storyline centers on him. If you look on Appa's section in the major secondary characters page, you'll see that there's a lot of stuff to be added anyways. If someone's willing to make the transfer, I say go for it. Y BCZ 04:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm on it. User:Kochdude388 22:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think its necessary...our character pages are mostly plot summaries as it is. If anything, they need to be pruned, not have more made.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Nobody should have there own page. All of the character articles are rarely used since nobody is going to go through the trouble to look at seperate articles. All the descriptions should be on one page. Otherwise, no point. In addition, at the time I wrote this comment, Appa was not even in this article. There wa just a link to a list of creatures. Please put him in.

... Appa is on the front page. And if everything was on the front page, it would be cluttered and disorganized. It's almost a Featured Article status now and the set up is good. -Dylan0513 02:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Forms? (Moved)

"Father Wish" here, the original.

See here the thing, the trading card game provides the official names for the moves (rather than have shout them out in the show, another inorganic cliche down) so should we just I don't know, make an official article for them all, kinda like the Naruto-jutsu page (except quite a bit more organized)? For example, the technique (lets call it that) that Jeong Jeong used in the Deserter and Azula used in the Chase to make their escapes is known as "Swirling Flames". While the daggers that Zuko used in the first episodes of the first and second season are called "Twin Fire Daggers." Also the swiping move Aang's always doing with his staff is the "Pendulum Swing." See how it works? Eh. --3 November 2006

Who would need this information? Unlike Naruto, which I'll admit to never seeing, I'm guessing those moves have some significance to what they are/do, sort of like the different moves in DBZ. However, in Avatar, those moves have no real meaning, they are just a bending move. The card game names them because they need to, the show has to reason to give emphasis on certain moves because the moves themselves have no significance in the show (other than the air scooter and water whip). H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 15:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Most of the Avatar moves *MIGHT* have a specific name. This is typical of martial arts, where specific kicks, mounts and other elements are all given names to diferentiate them. However, in any kind of real fight, a martial artist is going to be be chaining moves, stances and attacks together to create somthing that will bring about victory and not yelling attack names like an anime character! Besides, the Naruto Justu lists are getting huge, and we don't need that kind of cruft here. 23 Nov 2006

Excessive vandalism

I've noticed that there's an unusual amount of vandalism done to this article. Why don't we have this article locked?

--TcDohl 04:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Cause it doesn't work. Many of the vandals actually have a an account with Wikipedia. The others will just wait it out until the lock goes away. Until the assholes find something else to tickle their pickle, I get to sit there and monitor every edit that gets done to this page. JOY! H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 05:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Excessive Links!

I swear that I took out the excessive inks in this article. ANd now they're back. Please, don't link November, or American, or 2005. Chances are, the reader WILL NOT be interested in those links, and chances are, the reader will probably know what those mean. Linking is only for words that aren't common, like Lue Gehrig, or something like that. Abby724 00:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Dates are supposed to be linked, according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). Y BCZ 01:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Which I explained in your first talk page note about it.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Dates are supposed to be linked? Alright. And I don't remember you talking on my talkpage about it, but okay. Sorry for that little misunderstanding. Abby724 23:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Dates are only suppose to be linked if there is a month and a day or a month, day and year. However, if it is simply a month, a year, or a month and year, then they shouldn't be linked. --69.43.0.31 13:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

How to Upload a Photo

Sorry I was trying to upload a photo of Momo for the Winged Lemurs section and I didn't know how to!!! Please help!!! TommySmith 00:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

No offence, but don't. If you don't know how to upload one, there is a good chance you don't know how to properly source it. Plus, the Winged Lemurs already have a photo. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 00:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Character Descriptions

I think the descriptions of the main characters are too long, especially Iroh's. I think each one should be around three sentences long because each character has their own article. Thanks! 70.137.180.59 03:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Iroh's is mostly long due to the information about Mako, it will shorten once a name is revealed. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 04:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I was going to make the same topic, but does Iroh's have to be THAT long? even without the info about mako, it's still pretty loong compared to the others.69.169.92.216 02:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Mako- Who is the new voice actor for season 3? For season 2, even the episodes aired after his death, he still was alive when they recorded the voices.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.226.247.82 (talk • contribs).

I agree, the descriptions of the main characters are too long. It makes the whole article too bulky. Each description should have only a few sentences about who that person is, personality, etc. It shouldn't drone on and on about her/his history and include things about what each character did in each episode. All the details should be in each character's personal article. Jazzpizzazz5000 06:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You do have a point with the length of the character descriptions, but there are too many characters to make there own articles. It becomes too confusing and unmanageable. Besides, that means that someone would have to:

1. Create and article for each character.
2. Copy the text from this article and possibly lengthen it to make it a full article.
3. Delete the character descriptions from this article.
4. Create new shorter descriptions for every article.

In addition, there would have to be people constantly improving so many articles SEPERATELY. It is much easier if they stay in this article. 71.247.34.36 01:35, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

What? Don't each of the main characters already have their own article? Jazzpizzazz5000 02:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, unless you count Momo as a main character. But that's another discussion, I think... Anyway, why is Aang, Katara, and Sokka's character descriptions so short while Toph, Zuko, and Iroh's are still long? Someone still working on that or is it supposed to be that way? Kochdude388 23:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I reverted it, there was no reason for such a gross removal of text. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 00:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

There was no reason to revert it. The point of reverting edits are to remove vandalism. And that wasn't vandalism! The original text is way too long. It looks like someone just pasted a few random pieces of information together. Plus, the decriptions are mainly plot summaries. Did you even think of reading my edit before reverting it? Quality is more important than quantity. By the way, I was going to edit Zuko's, Iroh's, and Azula's descriptions so that they aren't so wordy, too. Jazzpizzazz5000 07:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge Articles

There are four instances in which ANOTHER article is written for that topic. This article is too broken up unless the episode list is added to this article. Since this is a TV show article, the core bascis of what has to be in it should be character descriptions, plot, history, and epsiode list. Without the episode list (which most visitors will be looking for), it becomes difficult since you have to navigate back and forth between the two articles.

Another part is the list of creatures in Avatar. The main reason I want to merge these to is because to main creatures are too important to be in a seperate article. I am talking about Appa and Momo. They are in a seperate article even though they are one of the most important features of the show. There are two options to solving this: Add a description for Appa and Momo to the list of creatures and leave the rest in the other article (with a link to the other article) OR merge the article completely.

Article Improvement

I have studied some sources on Wikipedia and found how to improve this article.

A very good and compherensive article. --Member 16:38, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. Has no picture, a long article, but not worthy of being a featured article IMO. Howabout1 ^{Talk to me!} 23:32, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

  Articles need not have a picture to be featured. That objection is thus invalid and your vague "not worthy" is inactionable... 119 19:21, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

  I'll be more clear. It is mostly a synopsis, very little production content. I don't think it is best to show the world this article as what wikipedia strives for. Howabout1 ^{Talk to me!} 22:27, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

  But when the subject of the article is a television show, there is little reason not to include a screenshot or two. The relaxation of the requirement is intended for articles where an example image would be difficult to obtain or create, even when you take fair use into consideration. slambo 19:25, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

• Object 1) There are no images. 2) Cite your sources. 3) The lead section is too short for an article of this length; it does not adequately encapsulate the entire article. 4) Too much of the article is devoted to episode synopses while not enough is discussed about the program's development and production. 5) There is some discussion about what influenced this show, but I don't see anything on the show's perception in or influence on modern culture (compare this article to other featured articles about television shows such as Blackadder or Dawson's Creek). slambo 19:13, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

• Object. Cannot be both stable and comprehensive. The listing of (vocal) credits should correspond to the list of significant characters, as much as possible. And I do not believe that any article about an animated work can be viewed as satisfactory if it does not identify and discuss the animators at an appropriate length. Monicasdude 23:12, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

This quote is when this article was nominated for featured article. As you can see, some of this has changed like there being no images, no long introduction, focus on show creation, and focus on creation influence. However, editing on the article has been too drastic. The quoe above says the article focused too much on epsiodes, but now the episodes are not even in the article! There has to be some kind of list and description of the episodes! Another problem is you need to cite your sources! Otherwise, there is no comparable source in case there is an argument. There is a weak point in the plot synopsis and premise due to its unusual shortness (I think I made up the word shortness). Finally, there needs to be more credits. Yes, it does mention the characters voices (even though I wish there was a small description on each) but there are no animators or other relative credits. At the least, there should be a list of other people who worked to create Avatar (animators, producers, sketch artists, etc.). In addition, as mentioned in another discussion, Appa and Momo should be mentioned in the article at some point.

Don't come over here and tell us what to do when you clearly have no idea what we have even done. I'm reverting vandalism by day to the character pages so obviously they get read. To move them here would make it too long and it's not needed unless Wikipedia suddenly told us we needed to cut down on the number of pages being made. Secondly, Appa and Momo are both on this page. Appa needs to be moved to main character but since his page is still being developed we're holding back. Momo is mentioned as a major character and his full bio is on that page.
Plot synopsis should be short, that's why it is called a synopsis. The episodes have been moved because if they were here on the main page it would just become cluttered. That page, also, gets visited enough that it should have it's own page.
Lastly, about credits, we have posted what we know. We can't post a full list of all the animators because it would be too large and not all of them work on every episode. We can make a seperate page if need be, but no one really cares as none of the people on that list will be anything recognizable.
In conclusion, next time, read the article and look at how it has changed because as of now it simply seems like you are talking out of your ass and not really saying anything helpful/useful to our editing. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 06:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Look, I was not telling you what to do. If I knew all about the article, I would. I was suggesting what you should do. I did not know anything else. This is a talk page. It is made for suggestions to improve the article. If you think I should not help just because my tone of writing is too demanding, then maybe you should try to help improve a big article with so many extensions when you are a first-time editor. I do apologize, though, if it sounded like I was demanding those changes. I was simply suggesting. 71.247.34.36 22:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Is Appa a main character?

Appa now has his own page and this brings up the question of is he a min character and should he be in that catagory? I don't think so. He's not human and there's not enough about him. Also, if Appa is a main character, isn't Momo one too? -Dylan0513 03:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Dude, where were you when we were making the page in the first place? Appa has his own page now and is no longer on the major secondary characters page. The move was made after a consensus was formed due to how much impact Appa has had on the show, especially recently and due to his relationship with Aang. Momo's not a main character because he's purely a comic-relief pet, while Appa has played a role in the plot of the series as well as several individual combats. See the difference? Y BCZ 04:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I say we keep his name off the main character list for now as his page still needs some development. Once it's atleast full and complete, then we'll move him up. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 05:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I definitely agree with keeping him off for now. But really, how many main characters can there be?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dylan0513 (talk • contribs).

Aether?

Is there an actual source that says anything about the Avatar representing aether? If there's not, it's really just speculation and shouldn't be in the article. Exhibit A 06:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It's never actually said anywhere that I know of, but it's sort of implied since there is a spirit world and the Avatar is the link between are world and it. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 14:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"Sort of implied" is used as justification for a lot of things that get reverted, usually by you, H2P. That conclusion never jumped out at me, and aether's not nearly as well known as the other four elements, and doesn't appear in any other modern pop-culture things that reference the other four. --Herald Alberich 14:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The Fifth Element is a great example. Or "Heart" in Captain Planet. I've got more. The Pentagram usually places the fifth element at the top point. I'm not saying it belongs on this page, it does lack a source that the creators intended it to be that way, but if you think it really has no bearing than you can remove it, it just won't be me doing the removing. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 16:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Wait, what the...

Is this seriously an A-class article now? I mean, I'm not complaining, I just want to make sure the decision is justified. Y BCZ 03:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Its still a GA. There's been no review to remove it. I don't know why the templates were removed, its still listed at WP:GA.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The guy who posted the peer review actually changed the rating. I've been meaning to send this in to peer review for a while now. We have a little more work to do but I feel we're getting close. I think Zuko might need peer review soon too, I don't think it's rating is right anymore. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 06:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Third season

Does anyone know when the third season is supposed to start?--Editmonkey 04:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Acording to IMDb it airs around july time, i dont know how acurate this is though http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0417299/episodes

Oh yeah, We've seen how accurate IMDb has been throughout our time here in Wikipedia. I doubt it's July, Nick just isn't that dumb to hold off the show for 8 months when most their target audience (American tweens) have severe cases of ADD. Anyway, I'm looking for actual confirmation on Season 3. I've checked all the sources out there that I know of and no one has a clear answer. We know Nick has announced atleast 20 more episodes but we're in the blank as to when they'll come about. If there is anyone out there with a source date (or even a source month) please come forward. I'm pulling for March as per Avatar State but I'd like a source. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 03:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Pooldude says the first episode wil finish production in April and will air probably in late April/early May. Though Pooldude doesn't count as a reliable source, I'm almost positive he's right on this one. -Dylan0513 03:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know man, I just don't see Nickelodeon pushing aside one of it's top performers for 5 months. Better shows have lost out due to such moves. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 03:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, at the PMX the creators said "with the new year." What that means, exactly, is anybody's guess.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 03:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That means 2007. And the keywords are finish production in April. This isn't Nick, it's just taking a long time to make S3. -Dylan0513 11:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it'll come out in February/March like Books One and Two did. Kochdude388 14:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The Guru

Can someone add more to the episode plot of "The Guru"?

Where is Mai on the major secondary characters page?

Main Characters

I was reading over the article to see if there were any minor errors to fix and I found something. I found that the Main Characters part of the article is greatly written. I was amazed at how it was written. I would like to compliment all the writers and editors as this was a perfect section. In addition, I did a partial copy edit and revision up to end of the Characters section.

Not sure how old the above comment is but... I find something very wrong with the main characters section. It sounds like it was written by someone very young. I think the whole section should be looked over and given a more mature, academic, objective-sounding tone. --Htmlism 00:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Mature, academic, and objective-sounding? I can understand mature (some of the sections could be improved), but academic? Objective-sounding? Are you saying we should do psychoanalysis on the characters and describe their behavior in less simplistic terms? And I don't see how you could make them more objective-sounding when they're all based on observations, and not in an opinionated manner. Explain the problem more clearly before you expect us to agree that there is a problem that needs to be fixed. Y BCZ 00:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I was just saying to say. If you don't want to change it, then don't change it. --Htmlism 01:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion Transfer

If you need information on how to improve the article, I will paste the current FAC page here and put a small explanation below. Note that I am only doing this as not many people are visiting the nomination page.

As mentioned, many of the information needs in-line citations. This, of course, is a very difficult job as since the article is already written a reliable source needs to be found. I will try to help out, if not take over this job completely knowing everybody else needs to be concerned on the other articles (I am not being offensive).

Link cleanup

some links get redirected. I'd help clean them up but the page is locked. --Tsinoyboi 00:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:RDR#Don't fix links to redirects that aren't broken. Don't worry about it. --Herald Alberich 03:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Archive Problem

There is a problem with the link to the archive. I tried changing it to a different link (thinking maybe there was a /archive1 and not a /archive2 like it said) but it did not work anyway. No big problem, just pointing it out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Parent5446 (talk • contribs) 03:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Should be fixed now. You can always view all the sub-pages of a talk page by using Special:Allpages, then typing in the name of the talk page. -- Ned Scott 03:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Number 9 for December!

Avatar is number 9 for December on the Top 100 WikiCharts![1] We're also the 2nd highest on Wikipedia related page behind the Wii! I know it's only been 3 days but great job everyone and this is now and has been one of the most popular pages on all of Wikipedia! -Dylan0513 01:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, things are looking up despite the chaos that erupted Friday. More importantly, the article's just one Support away from becoming a Featured Article. Good job, guys. Y BCZ 01:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yup, I'm surprised Crossroads, The Guru, and the episode list aren't on there. Being ahead of Sex and Pornography on the top 100 really means something, XD. I can't wait until this article is on the main page. -Dylan0513 02:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

YAY! I'm gonna be SICK! H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 02:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow, now the statistics are back up again and Avatar: The Last Airbender remains high at 10 and only behind Wii for non-related wiki pages, but now the Episode List is up there at 47! I'm surprised Crossroads or The Guru isn't there! -Dylan0513 21:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Four nations, four cultures

If you look at the world map, each nation can be compared to other cultures. For instance, (at least from what I’ve seen) the Earth Kingdom can be compared to China. The earth king wears the garb of a Chinese emperor. The Fire Nation can be compared to Japan because it is a tiny island off the coast of the earth kingdom and its inhabitants are trying to invade and conquer said kingdom, like the Japanese did China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. The Air Nomads can be compared to Tibet because its inhabitants were nomads and had temples high in the mountains and because of the reasons I listed HERE! And the Water Tribe can be compared to a mix of Alaskan Eskimo and Native American cultures. Obviously they live on their world’s equivalent of the north and south poles, but many of the weapons that Sokka uses (especially his war club) were used by American Indians.(See HERE!)(Ghostexorcist 22:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC))

Very interesting, but there needs some more similarities. Otherwise, it may be jus a coincidence. Besides, there are no actual resources that show an influence of thos cultures on the show's creation. However, it may be worth mentioning. jeremybelpois 00:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to get anything put into the main article, I just wanted to note the similarities. However, I am most positive that the monastic order of the Air Nomads are based upon Tibetan Monks. It's too much of a coincidence that Aang chooses the same toys that previous Avatars had played with, just like a child, who is supposed to be an incarnation of a tulku lama, chooses the tea-cup, ritual implement, rosaries, etc. that he once used in his previous life.

Now for the Water Tribe...

The aboriginal [Eskimo] fish-spears are many and interesting. Those from northern Alaska have heavy bone heads fastened with sinew to light cedar shafts; a wooden socket in the end receives the barbed point or points through which is rove the line of sinew or rawhide, which holds it, and to which the shaft is attached by a short arp. Some of the points are made of native copper, and have many barbs; others, from the interior are tipped with horn or bone.[2]

After having read that, look at the picture HERE. Sokka’s spear is clearly made from bone. Also, as I’ve previously stated, Sokka’s other weapons are reminiscent of that used by American Indians. Go to this page HERE, scroll down almost to the very bottom and look at the circa 1830 drawing of the Indian weapons. Look at this picture of Katara using his club. Now look at this picture of an American Indian war club. I don’t think the Avatar writers/animators came up with Sokka’s weapons out of the blue. They are based off of these.(Ghostexorcist 04:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC))

Azula and show discription

Can Azula still really be considered flat. She really isn't evil, but rather is willing to do anything to complete the goal of the Fire Nation.

Also, who is working on the show disription? I would start it, but McAffee onlt shows half the page and I can edit it very VERY rarley. The last paragraph of the lead could be used in the discription.

By the way, are we allowed to put the Episode telpate under the header for the Episode Subsection or not? I think that would be a much better use. Cnriaczoy42 01:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I must disagree with you on the point of Azula. It's pretty clear with her actions and the cinematography surrounding her situation the viewer is intended to see her as evil. She probably sees herself as someone willing to do anything, but in a T.V. show atmosphere, it's really what is alluded to the viewer that forms the basis of opinion. -(Y.krzepicki 03:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

Episode Template

I'm removing the episode template that was just added because I think it's best served to bind the episode pages together, not the main article. --Htmlism 17:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought that it might work, but i'm not going to revert to change it. I just thought that it would be an easy way to jump to episodes automatically. Cnriaczoy42 18:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

...Intro too long? Says WHO!?

Is the lead really too long? I checked Wiki guidelines, it looks fine to me. It looks like we can maybe move one paragraph (about the reception) to a later point in the article, but as it stands, it's four paragraphs that address the context of the show and media information. Aren't those the main points? I want to remove the tag, but I'm not familiar enough with Wikipedia guidelines to take the initiative. Y BCZ 04:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It's actually on the FL statements. There is a guy on there who thinks we should move towards the House article and seperate the show's development information as well as popularity into it's own section. Feel free to go read it, I do mostly agree. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 04:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Plead read WP:LEAD, the lead paragraph of this article is too inclusive of the wide range of details. FrummerThanThou 13:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Until he have a good development information section, we should keep the lead. I believe once we have that,, it will be easier to cut the lead in size. Cnriaczoy42 13:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy of the Nickelodeon Website

Okay, the Nick web-site is used as a source for a lot of info on Avatar, and that makes sense since Avatar is a Nick production, but how reliable is the web-site?

I just noticed a note on The Crossroads of Destiny where it says that, according to the Nick web-site, Aang never successfully opened the seventh chakra. I checked, and that's true, the site does say that, but I also noticed something else: It was just plain wrong in its description of the episode. It had dialogue that was not in the show, inaccurate descriptions of Aang's entrance into the Avatar State towards the end and, though I stopped reading to come and write this, probably more errors.

If it's wrong on this episode, who knows what else it's wrong about? Can we trust it as a source? JBK405 01:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The show is the first source above all others. Nicks site is the second. I think when it comes to actual episode information the site gets a little skrewy because it's half synopsis and half preview. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 02:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I know that we take she show over everything else, that's the pretty standard way of accepting canon, so if there's ever a contradiction (Like in Crossroads of Destiny) I just keep the shows information, but I wonder about information not revealed in the actual episodes. Characters names, backstories, "While you were out" info, and the like; how do we know they're accurate? JBK405 02:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Well the only actual contradiction to the site is the show or the co-creators themselves. Since the co-creators are working for Nick and, as we assume, giving this info to Nick, then by all standards we can consider the information on Nick to be correct unless contradicted by the show or it's creators. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 02:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Elements

Is there any way to cite where the show gets its elements from? And why bother mentioning the classical Hindu and Buddhist elements and have one missing, when the four Greek elements fit just fine? Only the names of the characters come from the other cultures. The only thing stopping me from editing this section outright is the lack of citation... --Htmlism 02:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This section greatly disturbs me too. There is a lot of conjecture and assumed connections that just don't have any basis except original research. If someone doesn't cite the reason they chose Buddhism or Hinduism over Greek, Japanese, or Middle Age (since these all fit), then I'll just be forced to edit the section completely and make general connections to the classical elements. Avatar can be drawing its inspiration from any of these; specifying which without citations is just assumption.

Furthermore, unless someone adds citations that the elements in the show, not in Buddhism or Hinduism, represent the four states of matter, then I'm going to have to remove that part altogether.

Sage of Ice 11:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised that the show didn't go with the Five elements of Chinese cosmology since it is heavily influenced by this culture (among others). But I can see how the general western viewer wouldn't be able to connect with these "foreign" elements not featured on Captain Planet.(Ghostexorcist 20:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC))

They seem to be trying to somewhat incorporate the Chinese ones in though, as of season two. With "plantbending" and "metalbending" now being possible but rare, they've started to give "wood" and "metal" some attention in the series.

Regardless, I have seen no citations yet and no objections towards my editing it. So that is what I shall be doing. Soon. Very soon indeed. Sage of Ice 21:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I know they did "metalbending" regarding Toph, but I had no idea that they hinted at "plantbending". Which character did this? (Ghostexorcist 22:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC))

the waterbenders in the The Swamp NekrosKoma 22:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

It is done. I have reworked the "Elements" section of the article. Let me know what you guys think. Sage of Ice 23:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

awards edit

Can someon please revert the edit where the awards were removed. I would be mcaffee makes only part of the page come up. Cnriaczoy42 23:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Fix Up

I moved some of the information from the lead into a seperate section in the overview. However, I did not want to remove the tag at the top of the page until I am sure it is okay.jeremybelpois^{(Murder me for my actions)} 00:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Genetics

Under "Fighting Styles", there is a sentence explaining that the ability to bend in the show comes from genetics and spirituality. I'm all for this thesis, but there is a problem:

The example used as the pro-genetics argument (the twins in The Fortuneteller) is actually counter-genetics.

See, the twins depicted in the epidose are identical twins. You can argue that I don't know that for a fact but, if look at them, you'll find it a hard claim to refute.

See, identical twins always contain the exact same copy of genes, so long as the ontogeny is properly maintained. This is because identical twins are formed from one single fertilized ovum. This ovum has acquired a set assortment of genes, half from each parent. This ovum then undergoes a complete mitotic division. The result of this will be two fertilized ova that will both grow to become a separate fetus, but that will both have the exact same set of genes.

Now that the science is out of the way, what does it mean? It means that if earthbending is a genetic trait, then both twins would have the ability. Both twins would have the same genes, and thus both twins would be capable of earthbending, since they are identical twins.

This fact alone would pretty much dictate that bending can't be genetic. How else would you explain the presence of the ability in one identical twin but not in the other, if they have the exact same genes?

--> Now, for the purposes of the article, this is where you can stop. The bit about genetics on the article needs to be removed because it is just scientifically incorrect. Unless anyone has a concern about this, I will be deleting it shortly.

---> Having removed the only thing that seemingly pointed bending ability towards being partly genetics-based, the rest of this article will provide a new pro-genetics hypothesis. It can not be inserted into the article, however, as it is well... just a hypothesis, so it's merely for discussion.

Here goes.

However, turns out that there is still a possibility for bending to have a genetic factor. It comes from mutations. The only thing that would give one identical twin a genetic difference from his identical brother would be genetic mutation.

It is very possible then, that one of the twins suffered a mutation that either enabled or disabled his ability to bend.

I would like to think that is mutation is an "enabling" one. I would also like to think that it is spirituality-associated mutation. This would mean that there would be two kinds of people in Avatar: benders and non-benders.

Benders have the bending gene, non-benders don't OR have a non-functioning one. However, a high degree of spirituality could effect the genes of an individual, causing a mutation which would grant non-benders the ability to bend.

This would be the most logical conclusion given that the Air Nomads are all benders due to their spirituality.

I could go on and present even more complex mechanisms for spirituality-genetics cooperation involving transcription, gene product, and other stuff, but then I'd be writing an essay, which is something I'm already in danger of doing.

So I shall leave you with this, currently the only pro-genetic argument present in the series:

Bending distribution.

Notice how benders of a certain element only seem to be born in the respective elemental nation? There were no earthbenders born in the North Pole. No firebenders born in Ba Sing Se, at least not that the show has shown. This distribution pattern is identical to that of an evolutionary gene selection pattern.

What this means is that the more a specific population increases, the more prominent its genes will become. Because the North Pole is such a good place for Waterbenders, their migration from the Earth continent left more earthbenders behind. As these earthbenders reproduced, the frequency of their gene, the earthbending gene, also grew while the frequency of other genes decreased. Eventually, through selection, only the earthbending gene was left in the population.

And that seems to be the world we see now in the show, so I am very much pro-genetics affecting bending ability. Sage of Ice 11:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Very in-depth. Fortunately, I understand what you are saying. I will look around to see what I can do.jeremybelpois^{(Murder me for my actions)} 14:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I can quite easily make the argument that we don't know for sure that they are identical twins. Fraternal twins can often look quite alike, especially when they're young. Example? Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen. They're faternal, yet in their youth they played the same character on a TV show. Its entirely possibly that the two kids in "The Fortuneteller" were fraternal twins, we just don't know.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

As you've said, we still don't know for sure. It cannot be stated as a fact and as a pro-genetics argument in this article if it is not verifiably true. Although I am all for a genetic connection to bending ability, this simply cannot be used as one. Sage of Ice 21:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

It is done. I have redone that little tidbit about genetics. Let me know what you guys think.Sage of Ice 23:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks good. Now that I take a closer look, it seems like the twins thing was as evidence of spirituality (ie, saying they're identical twins and only one can bend, so it must be spiritual) but a direct quote saying spirituality is involved is far better.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)}

All should feel free to discuss possible pro-genetics arguments here. Currently, there isn't a good enough argument to keep on the article.

My argument:

Yue is a being that is infused with the Spirit of the Moon, the spirit that is the source of all the Waterbender's powers. She is infused with this Spirit, the Spirit that fuels ALL waterbending, and yet she is incapable of bending. I find this to be the most solid evidence towards a genetic factor given the spiritual nature of bending.

Someone has disagreed and has removed it from the article. That's fine. Let's discuss possible factors here and see if we can come up with something else.

The Fire Lord bloodline is not good enough yet, mainly for the fact that Lu Ten's firebending ability hasn't been confirmed. Until then, we can't just assume and say the entire bloodline consists of benders. Sage of Ice 18:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I have to point out that we don't know Yue wasn't a Waterbender. The Northern Tribe only allows females to use Waterbending to heal, and Yue never had an opportunity to display any proficiency in that skill.

On the other hand, I think we can say that all members of the Fire Lord's bloodline seen in the show are Firebenders, and leave out Lu Ten entirely. --Herald Alberich 18:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I KNOW there is a source out there somewhere where the creators talk about bending being a mix between spirituality and genetics. 10 points to whoever finds it. Also, why would Lu Ten be put into battle if he wasn't a firebender. As we saw in Siege of the North, it certainly seems that the only people sent into battle (military, not naval) are firebenders. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 18:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

If you find, all the power to you. I'm all for a genetic connection, I think it only makes sense. I just want it to be official.

And that's not what we saw at all in the "Siege of the North". As I've said below, there were many soliers who marched in with spears, swords, and shields and never threw a single blast of fire anywhere. There were most certainly not firebenders. There was also the hammer throwing guy who clearly can't firebend if he chose to use hammers instead of fire blasts. Lu Ten could easily have been put to battle without being a bender.

But let's keep going. We know that the Rough Rhinos all served under Iroh at one point. He mentions this in "The Library". Yet of the entire group, only one of them is a bender: Colonel Mongke. Yes, it's official that the others are not benders, it's stated in the official Nick site. Clearly, however, the Rough Rhinos are an elite and respected platoon part of the army, Iroh even says that they are "legendary", despite only one of them being a bender.

Furthermore, what about the Yu Yan archers? They are elite and extremely respected, yet are not benders. Non-benders can rise in the ranks just as much as benders if you're skilled enough.

All this seems to be pointing me in the general direction that it's ok to not be a Firebender in the army. Why would it have been any different for a great general's son? Sage of Ice 19:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Lu Ten was almost certainly a firebender. He was part of the army, and all members of the Fire Nation army have shown to be firebenders. Besides, he was next after Iroh for the throne. I highly doubt the Fire Nation would want a Fire Nation prince that couldn't bend. Kochdude388 18:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

How do we kow that she couldn't bend or wasn't a healer? Did they speciffically say that? Cnriaczoy42 18:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yue wouldn't have needed Sokka as a body guard if she could bend. I don't think she was a Healer, either, she would have said so. Kochdude388 18:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Not all Fire Nation soldiers are Firebenders, according to our own article. Firebenders (other than officers) have face masks, and non-benders wield physical weapons. And Yue would need a bodyguard, because she wouldn't have been allowed to learn Waterbending for defense, according to Northern custom. When would she have mentioned she was a Waterbender? When would it have come up? --Herald Alberich 18:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, not all Firebenders wear the masks even if they are just privates. Watch The Northern Air Temple and you'll see guys inside the tanks shooting fire and wearing regular private uniforms. Thanks for bringing this up though, I'll proceed to go change it immediately.

Here are a couple of links to screenshots of the episode for faster viewing. http://www.avatarspirit.net/images/screenshots/117/216.jpg

http://www.avatarspirit.net/images/screenshots/117/203.jpg Sage of Ice 18:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

We can assume and suppose many things about the intricacies of the Fire Lord selection process and how Lu Ten fits into that, and what that means about his bending. Regardless, "almost" certainly isn't good enough for a factual article.

And not all members of the army have been shown to be Firebenders. If you watch The Siege of the North, you'll see many members of the army charging in with spears in hand, not blasting fire everywhere. It's very possible that Lu Ten was not a bender. You really think Iroh would hesitate to put him on throne for that?

Yes, Yue could have been a bender, and it's true that it wasn't specifically mentioned that she wasn't.

All this means is that both of these arguments are assumptions, therefore unfit to be in the main article. So I guess we'll need to keep searching, or wait it out. Sage of Ice 18:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I know that this debate has pretty much ended, but I just wanted to put my two cents in. I would lean towards the “spirituality” aspect. For example, Tibetan masters claim supernatural abilities like telepathy are a “Learned” skill. They call it “messages on the wind”. It starts with the master sending messages to the student, who can hear it, not because he is telepathic yet, but because of the pure focus of his master’s mind. Supposedly, after doing preparatory exercises, the student eventually is able to send these messages to others. Then, over time, the distance between the master and disciple is gradually increased until both can be anywhere in the world and still communicate.

There is a more “physical”, tangible skill known as Long-gum-pa (“Wind Meditation”), which allows a practitioner to run literally for days without stopping for food, water or rest. Some masters are supposedly as fast as horses and can run 200 miles a day or more. From what I have read, the training involves lessoning the body’s weight through psychic training. According to several accounts from western explorers during the 1920’s (or somewhere around there), these people run in (what appeared to be?) twenty foot strides and their gate seems to resemble the rythmic recoiling of a bouncing ball. Some masters supposedly wear big heavy chains to keep them from being blown away. Kind of like Eric Idle's character "Berthold" from The Adventures of Baron Munchausen who wore ball and chains to keep him from unexpectedly using his superspeed.

The skill of the "Respa" (if I remember correctly) is where a practitioner learns to increase their body temp to the point that they can melt snow from around them and dry multiple wet sheets (in turn) draped around them. The ultimate goal of this art is to be able to reside in the high mountainous regions completely naked. The body acts as a reactor which keeps the master warm. Just in case you think I’m a nut, my info comes from the books Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alexandra David-Neel and Beyond the Himalayas by Murdo MacDonald-Bayne.

Anyway, I just wanted to comment that just like these; fire, water, earth, and airbending could be learned arts. I'm not trying to get any of this put into the article.(Ghostexorcist 21:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC))

Criticism

Call me crazy, but the info in the Criticism section isn't criticism. It's more like praise. Maybe we should change it to something like 'Performance' or 'Critical Reaction' instead? Kochdude388 16:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It also needs more sources to better support the claims. Supertigerman 16:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I like "Critical Reaction." --Herald Alberich 17:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I've looked for actual crtics and did not find any reviews. They are either hidden in the deep archives of the Internet or are just not where you can find them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Parent5446 (talk • contribs) 00:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

Well think about it, what "upstanding" critic would review a show designed for kids on Nickelodeon? I'm pretty sure there is a review on Anime Nation that we could use (they did a detailed synopsis of SotFN before it was released). H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 05:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Anime Influence

In the Episode The Great Divide the story told by the Zhang is animated in a style very similar to Dead Leaves. Anyone know what the style of the Gan Jin is suposed to be? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.35.9.243 (talk) 18:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

The pictures of the Chinese characters in the Elements section

A point was brought up at the FAC nomination about the pictures of the Chinese characters seen in the opening not having a fair use rationale. But since they were created by Sage of Ice, not taken directly from the show itself, and depict ordinary, if archaic, Chinese lettering, I don't think they need a fair use rationale. Since they're essentially pictures of artfully drawn Chinese words, are they not public domain, or something? I'm thinking {{PD-ineligible}} might apply, but I don't know, so I'm asking. And as WP:TAG suggests, I might ask there as well. --Herald Alberich 23:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

They came straight from the opening shot of the ""Avatar"" world map in any episode. I just modified them to remove background color and reduce the pixel size. Other than that, it's a screenshot at its most basic. We have plenty of other screenshots already up on the site, and those seem to not be an issue. Furthermore, this same map can be seen on the official Nick site and on many known third-party websites. No one has had a problem with them yet. If these breach fair use rationale, then a lot of things do too, which would be a shame.

I used them, instead of the unicode characters, for the article because they are far more accurate. Calligraphy can be a hard thing to read depending on how it's done; I wanted everyone to see how the show did it, so that they could interpret it themselves. Is it a fair use breach? Sage of Ice 23:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, if the same characters can be produced otherwise, then it is. One of the requierments regarding fair use images is that they be irreplaceable. If there is another way those characters can be rendered (and don't ask me, I know next to nothing about all this business with Chinese characters) then we can't use fair-use images to depict them.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 23:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, it seems my question is answered, so the true question now is whether the calligraphy is different enough from the Unicode to be unique, and therefore allowable under fair use. I know there are those who would draw a hard line and say Unicode qualifies as a free alternative, but the screenshots also depict the calligraphy mentioned in the section just below this one, which is certainly not replacable in Unicode. Perhaps we could add "as seen above" to that section to further justify their inclusion, and (if we must) remove the picture already there. Also, they need fair-use rationales, which have been added to the other shots. --Herald Alberich 05:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Link for hidden text in opening paragraphs.

I found a sutible link. Someone go to Avatrspirit.net and their is a link to a ratings that shows how popular it is. I would add it myself, but ic ant view the link because of parental controls. Cnriaczoy42 21:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

A Souce about the Fan's Reception and Voiceacting

[3] I found this while looking for news, and it has some information such as what Coleman, vice president of Nickelodeon, observes about Avatar and such (10th paragraph down). Also, theres information on how they do the voice-acting for Zach, the voice-actor of Aang, towards the end of the article, and some information on what they are about to do/did with Mako, which is also near the end. Do you think that some of this is worth mentioning? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mr Kupo (talk • contribs) 04:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

I have the slightest feeling that...

The last two paragraphs in the beginning should be moved down to the Media Information section, also the last paragraph is kinda redundant since it is practically re-stated in the Media section. Any thoughts? Whydoit ^{(Why...do it?)} 05:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

By this, I mean that in the second paragraph:

Originally slated to start November of 2004, Avatar: The Last Airbender debuted on TV February 21, 2005 and is available on DVD or for download at the iTunes Store and the XBOX Marketplace. The show was co-created and is executively produced by Michael Dante DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko. With consistently high ratings in the Nicktoons lineup, even outside of its intended 6-to-11-year-old demographic, Avatar: The Last Airbender is popular with both audiences and critics, garnering 4.4 million viewers on its best rated showing.

The part I bolded sounds like it should be moved to the media section under Production or something similar, but I could be wrong. Whydoit ^{(Why...do it?)} 05:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

It's supposed to be a bit redundant, actually. WP:LEAD, especially for featured articles, specifies that the lead section should be a "mini-article" of sorts, having all of the most important information (basic plot overview, production, and marketing and reception) summarized there, with the rest of the article elaborating on what the lead says. --Herald Alberich 06:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that clarifies things a bit. I was wondering about why those were still there. Whydoit ^{(Why...do it?)} 06:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Cultural references

I've made some changes to the cultural references in response to one of the FA comments. I've removed the bits about Mongolian and Persian culture, as far as I can recall those influences only showed in a very minor context (Some the desert stuff in season two was quasi-Persian and the Rough Rhinos names are Mongolian) that's not worth listing there. I also made it clear what the Inuit mention was about. I wasn't terribly happy with the way its worded, so if you can improve it please feel free.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Jins

I was wondering if someone could explain these jins, is it a real life reference, is there really 85, and I'm just curious because it sounded interesting felinoel 20:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Critical Review

As a part of my planned Response section, critical reviews about Avatar are needed. I want to make a section (as requested by the FA candidate page) that has response, criticism, and other related materials. However, I cannot find anything. If you can find any reviews, etc., post them under a sub-heading on this discussion or simply put them in the article yourself. However, I do not reccomend putting it in yourself until enough sources and material is found to make the section at least a paragraph or two. Please help. jeremybelpois^{(Murder me for my actions)} 02:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I've tried looking also, appearantly you have to pracically scour the internet for something on the show...Whydoit ^{(Why...do it?)} 07:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

As have I...seems H2P has it right above: non-specialist reviewers just don't do "kid's shows".--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Pfft, I'd hate to contradict myself but here you go: http://www.animationinsider.net/article.php?articleID=1126. Seems they have a few articles about it: http://www.animationinsider.net/search_results.php?search=Avatar H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 07:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey, check that out

"Launched in February 2005, Avatar: The Last Airbender is the #1 animated series on all of TV among the boys 9-14 demographic. The series posted double digit year-to-year gains in May and averaged a 5.2 tween 9-14 rating/1.1 million viewers in its Friday night time period, up 23% in rating and 26% in impressions over last year. Among boys 9-14 the show posted even bigger year-to-year growth, up 25% with a 6.8 boy 9-14 rating."[4] H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 07:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This one is showing some promise...Whydoit ^{(Why...do it?)} 08:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a review on Season 3, it may not apply to the original intended demogrpahic. jeremybelpois^{(Murder me for my actions)} 02:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is the links page for the annie awards: http://www.annieawards.com/links.htm I don't have time to check them all now (sleep time) but I'm sure ONE of those sites is bound to have something useful. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 07:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Done: Now To Fix It

I took from the various sources you mentioned and added a paragraph of critical response. It needs to be elongated and edited. If it is okay now, I will tell the people at the FA nomination page that we added Critical Response so they agree with this article becoming a featured article. Continue to post any sources of reviews, etc. below. As for the rest of the article, the only objections against the article are that it needs more references and it needs a bigger influence section. Parent5446^{(Murder me for my actions)} 23:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess I kinda fixed it; I edited the section a little but it still needs to be legnthened. Whydoit ^{(Why...do it?)} 08:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Reincarnated Lama

The following came from the Cultural References section from this article…

When Aang was a child, he unknowingly revealed that he was the Avatar when he chose four toys out of thousands. These four toys were the same ones that past Avatars had chosen for generations when they were children, revealing that Aang was the reincarnation of the Avatar. This same test is used by Tibetan Buddhist monks when a reincarnated Dalai Lama is expected. Visions of the monks reveal who the Dalai Lama is, and this test finalizes that he is, indeed, the reincarnation. In addition, the successor is expected to show signs of continuity with the previous Avatar, such as being born within a week of the death.

References

• Nickelodeon's Official Avatar: The Last Airbender Flash Site. Nick.com. Retrieved on 2006-12-02.

Now read the following passage from the book Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alexandra David-Neel. The "[notes]" are mine...

“When the tulku [reincarnated lama] to be discovered is of a high rank, one of the state oracles may be consulted, and this is always done for the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama and the Tashi Lama ... When a child is discovered who nearly answers the prescribed conditions [--time and place of birth, family name, etc.—as set by the Tulku before his death], a lama clairvoyant is again consulted, and if he pronounces in favor of the child the following final test is applied.

A number of objects such as rosaries, ritualistic implements, books, tea-cups, etc., are placed together, and the child must pick out those which belonged to the late tulku, thus showing that he recognizes the things which were his in his previous life”.

References

• David-Neel, Alexandra. Magic and Mystery in Tibet. New York: Dover Publications, Inc., 1971 (ISBN 0-486-22682-4)

First, I want to note the book I got the passage from was first printed in 1929. Second, I’ve gone to the page linked with the first paragraph and failed in finding any reference to the Dalai Lama. I believe the quoted passage from the second paragraph explains the situation better, especially about the test involving the Tulku Lama's former possessions. Does anyone else think this should replace part of the current paragraph? I wouldn't care if it was cut down just to present the bare facts.

This is NOT just preformed for Dalai Lamas, it is done for ALL Tulku Lamas who wish to reincarnate again. I'm not yelling with capitalized letters, I'm just trying to show the difference. (Ghostexorcist 00:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC))

I just checked the nick avatar site again and this is the only thing I could find...

“Upon the death of an Avatar, Bending masters from the successive nation conduct a search to find the child incarnate. (The successor is expected to show signs of continuity with the one who died, such as being born within a week of the death.)” [5]

The page doesn't say a thing about the Dalai Lama. Since this info (about the Dalai Lama) does not have a source, I will be deleting it and exchanging it with a paraphrased version from the book entry complete with a citation.(Ghostexorcist 10:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC))

It's not the exact same test, but the general gist is the same, at least according to the Dalai Lama article. Whether or not that justifies its inclusion in this article is still a little sketchy, due to sourcing: without some source outside a fansite saying the test was derived from the Tibetan custom, its inclusion doesn't pass the source test, and it's just speculation (though fairly obvious). Virog^{It's not}_{my fault!} 15:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Criteria 1a

On the FAC page, Tony pointed out some big flaws in the intro's grammar. If the into is that bad, what's to say that the rest of the article doesn't have goofs either? I'd do some fixing but I'm on edge as to how correct my grammar is. Peer review anyone? Whydoit ^{(Why...do it?)} 08:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Main Character Dividers

I noticed that in between each major character is a horizontal divider. Since it blends in slightly with the underlining of the main section headings, I was wondering why we did not just mark each seperate character with ====Character Name====. Just asking. Parent5446^{(Murder me for my actions)} 01:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks better the way it is. Whydoit ^{(Why...do it?)} 01:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)