Talk:Arab citizens of Israel

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Overuse of the Amnesty International source?

There seems to be extensive use of the Amnesty International source as the sole source for many sections of the article. Ergzay (talk) 23:06, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you say which sections? It doesn't look like "many sections" afaics. Something wrong with Amnesty? Or the material being cited to them? Selfstudier (talk) 08:17, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Mass reversion

@Galamore: Care to explain why you indiscriminately reverted all of my edits? I would like to see a reason given for each edit. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

We have a stable lead that is balanced, covers different aspects of the Arab-Israeli community, including their views, identity, and more. With your changes you made really problematic additions and removals. Your version incorrectly labels Arabs in Israel as Palestinians, and we have seen on this talk page that the use of this term to refer to the entire community was rejected in RfCs and discussions again and again. After your changes the second paragraph became focused mostly on the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, which is not relevant to this article about the Arabs of 1948. You also introduced loaded terms such as "discriminated" that harmed the neutrality. So all in all the changes have not improved the article but have made it less neutral, confusing and in parts irrelevant. Galamore (talk) 08:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

@Galamore: No such thing as we can't change the lede because it is stable. As for labeling Arabs in Israel as Palestinians, the change in title was subject to no consensus, which hsa nothing to do with the body. My changes to the second paragraph actually trimmed huge chunks that elaborated on Palestinians' status in Jordan, WB and GS, which have nothing to do with Arab Israelis. There is no such thing as "loaded terms;" if RS have used them then WP will. Please give me specficic examples on each of your reverts and base your arguments on RS and WP's guidelines. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:42, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The stable lede was large and unwieldy. I’ve restored the trimmed version, except the first paragraph per concerns above, which I only removed the last sentence for being a duplicate of the last lede paragraph. starship.paint (RUN) 23:24, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the critique being made by Galamore above. Arab citizens of Israel are Israeli and not Palestinian as far as their nationality. I think this version of the lead seems to remove mentions of Jordan and Egypt which is problematic, as well as rendering West Bank citizens effectively stateless. Andre🚐 01:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Galamore: Sorry, I don't understand your reversal of the entire second lede paragraph which stated "per talk page discussion". [1] @Starship.paint: said that they agreed with your concerns of the first lede paragraph, while @Andrevan: said they agreed with the critique that Arab Israelis are Israelis. That was not a green light to re-revert everything in the second lede paragraph.

Given that this article is about Arab citizens of Israel, and not the citizenship status of Palestinians across the Levant, @Andrevan: can you please elaborate why you think it is important to mention Jordan and Egypt at the expense of other information relating to Arab Israelis, namely how they were put under military rule until 1966 and discriminated against per RS? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:53, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

@Galamore: Pinging one more time. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand the question? Your changes were reverted since they did not gain consensus. Galamore (talk) 08:04, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@Galamore: That is incorrect. My changes were reverted by you, then partially restored by Starship.paint [2], then re-reverted again by you [3]. Why did you re-revert the entirety of the second lede paragraph where no such objections to the entirety of that paragraph had been presented on the talk page? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:36, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@Galamore: Please contribute on the talk page to defend your reversions; the lede is currently in very bad shape. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:00, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Reverted banned sockpuppet. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:04, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I don't know if I saw that there was a question for me here? I think an important aspect of Arab citizens of Israel is their relationship to Jordan, which was the other half of Mandate Palestine, and Egypt, which is closely related to Israel vis the 1967 war as well as historically. I don't think it's a zero-sum game per se. We can also mention that they were under military rule and discriminated against. Andre🚐 20:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Andrevan: But this article is about the Arab citizens of Israel, not the status of Palestinian citizenship across the region, so why should this be mentioned at all? This is important because the lede is a summary that should be 250-400 words,; currently it exceeds 500, which makes it unreadable and incoherent. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems relevant to me. Wasn't there just a big RFC above about whether they are Palestinian citizens of Israel? Arab citizens of Israel is a closely related topic to Palestinian citizenship. Andre🚐 21:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

which was the other half of Mandate Palestine is a mistaken statement. That was a propaganda meme in early Zionism – the myth of the "first partition". Our articles on the topic explain the reality, that Transjordan was added to the mandate document as a legal convenience, but under an entirely separate administration with different objectives. It was never part of the legal entity of Palestine. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:00, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, and I didn't know that, but if it was added to the mandate in 1921 or 1922, then it was still part of the mandate by the 40s, when some Arabs became Israeli citizens? See also Jordanian annexation of the West Bank in 1950? Andre🚐 22:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@Andrevan: Despite being part of the mandate (mandate as in document, not as in geopolitical entity) Transjordan was still a separate state apparatus with its own nationality law. Jordan gained independence in 1946 and then extended its citizenship to Palestinians of West Bank in 1950. So neither of these periods play a role in the citizenship of Palestinians pre-1948 or the citizenship of Palestinians within Israel post-1948. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:53, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 September 2024

Within the infobox, please correct the Arabic name,

المواطنون الفلسطينيون في إسرائيل → المواطنون الفلسطينيين في إسرائيل

The adjective gets the nominative case of the noun — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 05:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. kemel49^{(connect)(contri)} 09:42, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Support: This is a grammar fix and I am happy to trust Cheesedealer on this. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 21:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC).

85% of Druze men

I removed the following:

It was estimated that 85% of Druze men in Israel serve in the army,

The reference url is dead, and has been since it was first archived by Wayback. The text was added in 2007 here.

I found a copy of the Olive Branch magazine dated Winter 2006/Spring 2007 here. It does not contain the statistic.

For this reason I've removed what would anyway be a very outdated statistic. If anyone can find a better reference, ideally newer, then the appropriate figure can be re-inserted in the "Conscription" section.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 21:48, 1 November 2024 (UTC).

Edit

@Stephan rostie: I think this change is POV; the Palestinian Druze Arabs for example mostly were not subject to what the Palestinian Christian and Muslim Arabs had been subjected to, owing to them forming an alliance with the Zionist movement. The previous version was NPOV and more accurate. [4] Makeandtoss (talk) 11:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I didn’t remove the “mostly” part of the “mostly Palestinians” for that reason. Leaving a room for the Druze and some bedouins who sided with the zionist militias, while at the same time adjusting and improving the due weight to cover the bulk of the arab citizens of israel who are predominantly the Palestinian muslims and christians. That was my rationale. Stephan rostie (talk) 11:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I still think the previous version was NPOV and speaks in tangible legal terms. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Lede

@האופה: While it could be legitimately argued that the EJ part was overdetailed for the lede, why did you remove mention of discrimination and Palestinian and Syrian population? [5] Makeandtoss (talk) 10:53, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@האופה: Please participate in the talk page discussion. Makeandtoss (talk) 17:52, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

POV language that I haven't seen in any other articles about the status of Palestinians in other states in the region. HaOfa (talk) 17:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@האופה: To clarify I asked two questions about removal of: 1- discrimination 2- Palestinian and Syrian population.

Your answers on the second question are irrelevant to WP:POV which states that significant viewpoint must be represented equally. Can you please source any viewpoint that disputes that Palestinians were largely discriminated against until 1966? Makeandtoss (talk) 07:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

@האופה: I am still waiting for your response. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:11, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Four pings and a month later, I am still waiting for a more elaborate response/engaging in a discussion from the editor in order to form a consensus about this simple issue. Pinging @Barkeep49: @Selfstudier:. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

This article is less "newsy" than many others in this topic area. So my personal opinion is that consensus will have been reached (on a WP:SILENCE basis) if there has been no further engagement after 4 weeks which by my count would be Dec 15. And obviously attempts to game this can be noted. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

@Barkeep49: Thanks for response. Note that silence is an essay not a guideline, and I think this interpretation is risky because it could give editors the right to delay the insertion of content to WP. The relevant guideline is WP:DISRUPTSIGNS: "Fails to engage in consensus building." Makeandtoss (talk) 07:34, 7 December 2024 (UTC)