Jump to content

Talk:Nestorius

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hill's book is falsely cited

[edit]

It says: In modern times, the Assyrian Church of the East, a modern descendant of the historical Church of the East, reveres Nestorius as a saint, but the modern church does not subscribe to the entirety of the Nestorian doctrine, as it has traditionally been understood in the West. Parts of the doctrine were explicitly repudiated by Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV, on the occasion of his accession in 1976.[12]

I was curious and interested, so I bought Hill's Light from the East. The claims you make are not there (pg. 107). Nowhere does it say Nestorius either was or is venerated as a saint. Also, your claim that Dinkha IV repudiated Nestorius' doctrine is false; he only repudiated the name, "Nestorian," as the name for his community.Mwidunn (talk) 02:42, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Supposed "Icon" of Nestorius Removed

[edit]

I removed the icon of Nestorius because, according to the Greek inscription, it is actually an icon of Saint Gregory the Wonder-Worker of Neocaesarea.

173.79.246.25 (talk) 07:55, 24 March 2014 (UTC)24/3/14[reply]

I removed the following text because of the copyright notice at the bottom:

Nestorius (c 381 - c 451) became the patriarch of Constantinople in 428 with the help of Emperor Theodosius II (401-450). He believed that there were two persons in Jesus Christ, one human and the other divine. Furthermore, he argued that Mary gave birth to the human person only--though she was the passive recipient of the divine person--and could not, therefore, be called Theotokos (Mother of God). His views were based in Antiochene theology and originated in thinkers such as Diodore of Tarsus (d c 390) and Theodore of Mopsuestia (c 350-428). Although he argued zealously against Arianism and Pelagianism, his views caused him trouble with the Church. The Council of Ephesus (431), led by his adversary, Cyril of Alexandria (412-444), condemned him as a heretic, thus ending his patriarchate. Very few of his writings exist today because in 435 Theodosius II ordered them to be burnt. In 436 Nestorius was exiled to Egypt and remained there until his death around 451. During the same year, the Council of Chalcedon formulated the doctrine that Jesus Christ has two natures, human and divine, united in one person, thereby affirming that Mary should be called Theotokos. Even so, Nestorius' supporters spread his beliefs to the east, and during the fifth century, they formed their own independent body. Ibas, bishop of Edessa (435-457), helped the Nestorians establish a school, an ecclesiastical center and a patriarchal see. Nestorianism survives today in parts of Iraq, Iran, and Syria.

Elise M. Bender

Copyright © 1995, Elise M. Bender. This file (all the above) may be copied on the condition that the entire contents, including the header and this copyright notice, remain intact.

Notice the copyright notice at the bottom. A fair argument could probably be made that the links alone make the text no longer intact, assuming those are the only changes made to it from Elise's original text. More importantly, there is nothing to prevent anyone from drastically altering the text and leaving Elise Bender's name associated with it, or simply deleting the copyright notice. Either of these would place Wikipedia in violation of the copyright conditions. This is why Wikipedia only accepts contributions that are in the public domain. Wesley

Agree. This is an FDLd wiki where all text is assumed to be content libre and editable by anyone -- including those that only want the bits and pieces. --maveric149

My understanding is that Elise still owns the copyright, but has agreed to license it irrevocably under the GFDL. When she clicked on the "Save" button she agreed to the terms of the GFDL (as per the notice above the button), which I understand does not allow any other restrictions. I belive that her comments here then have no contractural force, providing that other users obey the terms of the GFDL licence in their re-use of the material. But, hey!, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

Suggestion: We should have a copy of the GFDL on a protected page, and link to it from the boilerplate above the button. -- Anon.

Clarification to what I wrote previously (written before I saw what Anon wrote) IANAL: Most of what wikipedia accepts is in fact copyrighted and not in the public domain. By hitting save we all agree to license our unique contributions under the GNU FDL even though each and every contributor still owns the copyright to what they themselfs wrote. Public domain stuff can be copied by anybody, however any modifications that are made to the public domain material are copyrighted and owned by whoever made the modifications (lists, OCR errors and corrections ect. have dubious copyrightability though). --maveric149

Ok, I just looked at Wikipedia:Copyrights. That confirms what maveric149 says about everything being under the GFDL, but also says there can be no invariant sections (which the GFDL allows in general). Elise's copyright notice appears to make the entire text invariant, because it says it has to remain intact. It also doesn't mention the GFDL at all; did Elise post it here, or did someone copy it here from elsewhere? I'm also concerned that the copyright notice says that the "file's" header information has to remain, although I don't see anything resembling a header in the above text.

Is there any way to confirm that Elise's text is licensed under the GFDL in the first place? Any way to get permission to use it? Or perhaps we should just expand the current article to cover a comparable amount of material without using the questionable text, just to stay in the clear. Mind you, I like the content and writing of the text, I just want to make sure it's ok to both use and edit it. -- Wesley

There is a lot of debate in our time as to whether Nestorius was really guilty as charged. Why no mention of this?--Niceguy2all 04:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is mention of it now. But the mention was inserted without editing/correcting the earlier assertion, leaving the article contradicting itself.

Indeed: I am no proponent or supporter of Nestorius or Nestorianism; yet I find the coverage of Nestorius and his relation to Nestorianism disappointingly limited and unfair. No, he did _not_ create Nestorianism. His name was _attached_ to the movement for reasons that may have been somewhat unfair.

A fairer portrait would emerge if the authors of this page would take into account the newer and more impartial (than previous Western authors) of Leo Donald Davis in his excellent book on the Ecumenical Councils.

This fairer portrait would take into account, for example, the fact that it was Nestorius who conned the Emperor into persecuting Arians and Monophysites, yet it was this same Nestorius who, in exile in a secret location in Egypt, rejoiced at the Council of Ephesus, considering himself totally vindicated by this Council.

My source for both of these assertions is Kartashev's "The Seven Ecumenical Councils". 24.7.109.210 22:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Add to the references the best current summing-up. --Wetman 06:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hierophant

[edit]

Is he really a hierophant cause in the article called Hierophant his name is linked. Hope someone could help in this.Alain08 (talk) 22:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bazaar of Heracleides

[edit]

From the article: "Nestorius's earlier surviving writings, however, including his letter written in response to Cyril's charges against him, contain material that seems to support charges that he held that Christ had two persons. Thus, whether Nestorius was actually a Nestorian is still a matter of debate."

Citations please. Grailknighthero (talk) 05:46, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


'Saint' Nestorius

[edit]

Since most Christian churches do not venerate Nestorius as a saint, I find it bizarre that the infobox describes him as one. For the purposes of a Wikipedia article likely to be read by others besides Assyrians, it is sufficient to state further down in the article that the Assyrian Church of the East considers him to be a saint. I have therefore removed the contentious term 'saint' from the infobox.

'Mar' is a conventional term of respect in Syriac given to bishops, patriarchs and other supposedly-holy men. It does not necessarily imply sainthood. I have therefore also removed the erroneous statement that 'Mar Nestorios' means 'Saint Nestorius'.

Djwilms (talk) 08:00, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Icon Removed Again

[edit]

I removed the icon of Saint Gregory for the same reason as the previous person removed it. It is NOT Mar Nestorius. Please stop adding it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.112.88.146 (talk) 17:24, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not non-POV

[edit]

The rhetoric of this article is quite biased towards the figure described. Someone should clean it up and make it more objective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.126.106.61 (talk) 17:44, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

venerated by Syro-Malbar Church?

[edit]

The Syro-Malabar Church is fully in communion with the Roman Church - I doubt very much if it venerates Mar Nestorius as a saint, and the article on the S-M Church does not mention this, even if it uses a Liturgy named after him. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 17:53, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for being a year late, but no, the Syro-Malabar Church doesn't really venerate Nestorius; it uses a liturgy named after him, but as I said in my latest comment, the Syro-Malabar Church also venerates St. Cyril of Alexandria and accepts Mary's title as being the Mother of God. So I think it is a bit misleading to say Nestorius is venerated in the Syro-Malabar Church. Christin1000 (talk) 22:41, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are many saints venerated in the Eastern Catholic Churches who are not venerated by the Roman Church. Mar Nestorius is one of them. If you understood the historical nature of the Church, you would know that it is not necessary for particular Churches to recognise saints venerated in other Churches. But in spite of that, multiple Popes (including Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II) have recognised that Nestorius was misunderstood and have acknowledged that his veneration as a saint in those traditions which have historically followed his christology is warranted. 1.127.106.193 (talk) 12:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The commemoration of the "Greek Fathers" on Friday the 5th of February 2021 (on this Calendar: https://www.syromalabarliturgy.org/assets/assettt/panchangam English 2021 (1).pdf ) refers to the Greek (i.e. Western) Fathers of the East Syriac tradition. The 3 Greek Fathers of that tradition are: - Diodore of Tarsus - Theodore the Intrepreter, & - Nestorius. Therefore, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church does venerate Mar Nestorius as a saint. 1.146.187.2 (talk) 19:01, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Nestorius. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:15, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

hypostatic union

[edit]

"in the Incarnate Christ is a single hypostasis, God and man at once.[4] That doctrine is known as the Hypostatic union." The essence of the doctrine is that the Divine Person of God the Son has united to Itself a human nature as well. Thus the Incarnate Christ is one Divine Person, 2 natures. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 16:19, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nestorius Saint Thomas Christians

[edit]

Please add the specific churches that venerate Nestorius. The Syro Malabar Church has restored the Liturgy of Mar Nestorius as is stated http://www.syromalabarchurch.in/news_details.php?news=9670 but Mar Nestorius is not found in http://www.syromalabarchurch.in/seasons.php#seasson . If Nestorius is a feast day, then and only then can you add this. Thoughts?Manabimasu (talk) 14:49, 6 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your last assumption is incorrect. There are many saints who are venerated in particular Churches without having a specific feast day. Simply being listed as being venerated in a Church does not imply that the same feast date is observed. 1.127.106.193 (talk) 12:33, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The commemoration of the "Greek Fathers" on Friday the 5th of February 2021 (on this Calendar: https://www.syromalabarliturgy.org/assets/assettt/panchangam English 2021 (1).pdf ) refers to the Greek (i.e. Western) Fathers of the East Syriac tradition. The 3 Greek Fathers of that tradition are:

  • Diodore of Tarsus
  • Theodore the Intrepreter, &
  • Nestorius.

Therefore, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church does venerate Mar Nestorius as a saint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.146.187.2 (talk) 19:03, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I assume that the Syro-Malabar Church only sees him as a Doctor of Church Because they were part of the Nestorian Church for a long time and Had influence in the Liturgy and Culture, if the assumption is false and inaccurate I sincerely wonder why would Syro-Malabar Church Venerates Anti-Nestorian Saints such as John of Damascus as Doctors of the Church. Christin1000 (talk) 15:28, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add relation to syro-malabar church

[edit]

Someone removed him as venerated by the Syro-Malabar church. probably some salty catholic lmao 115.69.10.20 (talk) 05:34, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please Assume good faith. After doing a bit more research, I am starting to agree with the person who removed it, having a liturgy named after some one does not equal venerating him for more information on this Please read my comment, "About the Veneration of Nestorius in the Syro-Malabar Church." Christin1000 (talk) 07:12, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

About the Veneration of Nestorius in the Syro-Malabar Church.

[edit]

Hi, I am the editor who added that Nestorius is venerated in the Syro-Malabar Church in the Infobox, and I have seen some videos by people who used this Infobox to attack the Catholic Church by highlighting the "Venerated in the Syro-Malabar Church" part. I just want to say no; he is not venerated in Syro-Malabar Church nor are Syro-Malabarian are Nestorians Yes, the Syro Malabar does use the Anaphora of Mar Nestorius, but it's only used as a liturgy and not as a veneration of Nestorius. That's why I wrote, "Even Though Syro Malabarian Catholic do not usually venerate Nestorius as other Saints but there is a (pseudepigraphal) Anaphora is attributed to Him." Nestorius is not a saint whose icon will be found in every Syro-Malabarian Catholic's home; he is only found in the liturgy. Also, don't forget that the Syro-Malabar Church also venerates Pope Saint Cyril of Alexandria, the very Opponent of Nestorius. Christin1000 (talk) 15:07, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nestorius&oldid=1213297111"