Talk:Lake Chaubunagungamaug

Discussions from Talk:Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

I have moved the below discussions from Talk:Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg. I don't see much point having the separate talk page after the merger

Linguistics

Perhaps this should be moved to the Nipmuck language wikipedia. I see no evidence that this name has been accepted by the Bureau of Geographical Names at the USGS. It appears to have been developed for publicity purposes, and it is difficult too take it seriously. Eclecticology 20:20 Dec 17, 2002 (UTC)

I recommend we leave it: it isn't our job to judge whether the folks of Webster are entitled to use the Indian name. If the Indian name is itself some sort of hoax, that would be very well worth adding. And if there is some sort of question about the "official name" of the lake, that can be added to the article as well--but I don't know what rules are standard among geographers for judging the legitimacy of a place name. --Len

May I recommend moving it to a hyphenated title, just so as not to screw the formatting, as has been done for Llanfair PG?

How do you get "Englishmen" from "Chargogg", or is it vice versa? -phma

Best authority I can find indicates that the word means "knifemen", which was either a designation of Englishmen generally or else a reference to the mill built near the Manchaug village by Samuel Slater. This could stand more confirmation, and I'm not certain why the etymology is considered so debatable since there are surviving Nipmucks in the area. Based on this information, I would conjecture that the most literal translation of "chargogg-agogg-manchaug-agogg" would be "knife-men-manchaug-men", meaning "Englishmen living near the Manchaugs". --Len

Note that this literal translation is purely conjectural, even if I'm pretty pleased with it. Partial support for the theory that "agogg" denotes men is the origin of the name of the Manchaug tribe: it was "Monuhchogok", where the "ogok" can be conjectured to also mean "people" (on the fairly slender basis that many tribal nations named themselves "humans" and named everyone else by some sort of pejorative). I'm very interested for more detailed information on the etymology here. --Len.

If it helps any, Nipmuc is a dialect of Algonquin which is extremely close to Massachusett. So anyone with knowledge of any Algonquin language, be it Naragansett, Ottawa, Abenaki, or any of a few dozen others, can probably comment intelligently on this point. --Len.

In the present absence of Algonquins on this discussion page, the long name of the lake reminded me immediately of the Welsh commercially extended name for Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll, Anglesey, Wales, United Kingdom. Such is not the case for its original North-American Indian name. Might the '(Char)goggagogg' and 'gagogg' in the prefix be compared with (one of the variant spellings of) 'gogogoch' - in other words, where there Welsh jokers amongst the immigrants? Or was the longer version first recorded after the Welsh suffix had become world-famous? SomeHuman 02:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This is correct.

As a native of the area I can verify that this article is correct. I don't know who originally wrote this article but they are on target. I strongly disagree that it should be moved to a Native American language section. The bottom line is, the semanctics are immaterial. The name is part of the fabric of the town of Webster. It is a given that the former editor of The Webster Times probably started the "You fish on your side, I fish on my side and nobody fishes in the middle" myth. However, that belief has been part of the lore for over 50 years. Longer than I have been alive!

My first journalism job was with The Webster Times and I had the pleasure of working with Mr. Edward Patenaude. Please click on this for a futher explanation: http://oldewebster.com/history/lake_chargogg.htm

Route 16 not ending at 395?

Recently, User:Sertraline changed the text that said that Route 16 terminated at 395 near the lake. Why was this changed? It sure looks like it terminates there on a map, is there any evidence disputing that? —Cleared as filed. 12:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Disputed spelling yet...?

I'm simply making an observation, here. How is it that the long version of the name is spelled differently in many places, including on official signage around the lake, yet is a spelling word in the local elementary schools?

• Exactly. I removed this statement. I suspect it is the shorter version of the name that kids may have been tested on. House of Scandal 01:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Separate

This article isn't silly or spurious. Even if this super-long version of the name may be attributed to a newspaper article 80 years ago, its a well-developed meme and is often discussed and mentioned in print. Regarding the proposed merger, I am slightly against it as one article is about the lake and one is about its wierd name. If they are merged, I guess having a section on "The lake" and "The name" wouldn't be so bad. House of Scandal 01:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

End of moved discussions

End of the moved discussions. Nil Einne (talk) 09:49, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Audio Pronunciation

The pronunciation seems unusually mangled. The pronouncer didn't even try.70.92.74.148 19:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Even moreso than in other cases, the IPA gibberish here is completely useless. For shorter words people can, if they care enough, look up what each nonsensical character means (assuming they all load), but doing so here would be like trying to translate Ge'ez text into Kartuli with a dictionary without knowing either language or script. There is overwhelming support for giving alternative phonetic rendering of words, but for some reason the socially inept cabal who obsessively micromanage wikipedia refuse to allow that. 107.3.44.127 (talk) 20:41, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

'Alternate' Name? -- Rename?

Dirk is awesome Correct me if this isn't your experience, but ... I've only heard Webster natives refer to this lake in two ways: as "Webster Lake" or as "Lake Chargoggaggog..." (the 45/49-letter version). "Lake Chaubunagungamaug," the title of this article, I've only seen on maps, presumably to save space. None of the signs by the side of the lake carry this name, nor does it appear on locally sold souvenirs or in the local media. "Lake Webster" I've never heard of in any place. So of four names given in the article, in their order of appearance, I've found the first two to be rare, if existant at all, and the last two -- the "alternate name," "Lake Chargogg ...," and "Webster Lake" -- to be the most common. Also, the lake is most famous for its name; and it's the 49-letter version, not the abbreviated "Lake Chaubunagungamaug," that gets the attention. Should this article be renamed? Wiki Wistah 07:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree with Wiki Wistah - I just took a survey through my household and relatives currently online (totaling 7 persons, age to 65), none have ever called it this "Chaubunagungamaug" nor "Lake Webster." It would be appropriate to rename this article to Webster Lake or, likewise, to the 45/49-letter version and have the alternate redirect to said page. Ptrimby 01:09, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Letter Count Error

"Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg, the extra-long version of the name, is the longest place name in the United States and 6th longest in the world. Its 15 uses of 'g' are the most instances of any letter in a word. The name also contains more 10 instances of the letter 'a', more than any other word in the English language."

I only count 9 occurances of the letter "a". Is the count wrong, or is the spelling? 159.53.46.141 15:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I suspect they're counting the A in Lake since in that section they're talking about the "place name" and not just the long word itself.Gabenowicki 20:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I took it upon myself to change the wording of that section to clarify, hope it reads better now...Gabenowicki 20:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

But now I suppose the "Alternate Name" (extended version) is actually 49 letters long (not 45) because of the whole "Lake" thing. Perhaps I will take this upon myself as well...?Gabenowicki 20:52, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, the source that cites ten uses of the letter "A" is an even longer version of this name, 49 letters long (not counting "Lake"). It is Chargoggagoggmanchauggauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg (extra letters in bold). See this link via the wayback machine. This version also has 17 G's, not 15. I'll add a mention to the article, though I don't know its authenticity/the commonness of its use. Baileypalblue (talk) 18:28, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Merge Proposal

Merge after DYK.Bakaman 22:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, a merge seems appropriate. Circeus 22:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge with what? How can a merge to nowhere be appropriate? Kghusker 15:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

This article was selected for DYK!

 Larbot - run by User:Lar -  t/c 14:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Awesome DYK, best one I read in a long time. 70.22.209.56 18:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

"largest body of freshwater"

The Quabbin Reservoir is both freshwater and larger than Lake Webster. This claim should be qualified that it's the largest natural body of freshwater in the Commonwealth. GeeJimmy 14:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The largest body of fresh water is Long Pond in Lakeville, MA. at 1721 acres. The second largest lake in Massachusetts is Webster Lake at 1270 acres.

The Quabin Reservoir is neither a lake or natural. It is a man made body of water. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hneeser (talk • contribs) 14:12, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations

On the DYK! I learned much. I thought it was a spoof or a hoax until I read it. I really like the poem. Congrats again to everyone who worked on it, NinaEliza 15:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Request

Can someone please add a .wav or .ogg of the correct, full pronunciation of the name of the lake?

And/or IPA? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 17:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Failed GA nom

I failed this article on its Good article nomination for the following reasons:

• It fails requirement 1(a) the prose is comprehensible, the grammar is correct, and the structure is clear at first reading.

There are three separate mentions in three separate places that the natives of Webster prefer the long name, which seems awfully redundant. The entire section about the lake's name could benefit from some subheadings, or at least some grouping of related ideas.

• It fails requirement 1(c) [the article] generally complies with the Wikipedia Manual of style

The MOS states: "Check links after they are wikified to make sure they direct to the correct concept; many dictionary words lead to disambiguation pages and not to complete articles on a concept." This article links to boundary, editor, and skating – all disambiguation pages.

• It fails requirement 2(c) sources should be selected in accordance with the guidelines for reliable sources;

The section on Reliable Sources states: "A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources." Source #1 is a personal page hosted at AOL.

• It fails requirement 6 [the article] contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

This article contains no images, and would benefit from at least a picture of the lake and a map showing its location. Since "official signs near the lake" are mentioned, a picture of one or two of those might be helpful in illustrating the related point.

I did find this an interesting article, but it needs some work to meet GA standards. Acdixon 16:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

In popular culture

Should there be a mention of it being referenced in the Gilmore Girls episode "Welcome to the Doll House" (6x06)? --WTRiker (talk) 19:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

invalid link in "Languages" part

Link to farsi (فارسی) page is invalid. I don't know how to remove it, someone please do that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.183.244.165 (talk) 09:07, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. In the future, you can edit yourself if you'd like, click on edit this page, scroll to the bottom, delete the offending link, and click save page. - Epson291 (talk) 17:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Unclear Reference

In the "Name" section, a paragraph reads: "In the 1950s, a plan to set the official name of the water to Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg rather than the longer version inspired a poem of doggerel verse" which then mentions that the name must have 15 g's and no fewer. "Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg" is the longer version, with 15 g's. It appears that the plan was to shorten the name to something else. This should be corrected. ccdesan (talk) 14:07, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Two years on this hasn't been corrected. Koro Neil (talk) 02:19, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

lake carlyarwaa

lake carlyarwaa —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.194.27.98 (talk) 23:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Please change heading

I am a Webster lake resident. Please change the heading name to the correct spelling "Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChocoRiver (talk • contribs) 22:05, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Some comments on sources etc

I just did a quick copyedit of this page, but it still needs work. I put all the stuff about the name into the "Name" section and tried to reduce some of the redundancy and improve the flow and wording (but it still jumps around from this to that). The main thing I wanted to mention here is that I took out one of the references used and some text sourced to it. The link is [1], an old (now web archived) page titled "A Collection of Word Oddities and Trivia, Page 10". It is one of a bunch of pages on "word oddities and trivia". These pages are fun and I've enjoyed them for years, but they are not a reliable source, especially for the kind of claims they were backing up in this article, specifically:

Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg, the full-length version of the name, is the longest place name in the United States and 6th longest in the world. An even longer, 49-letter version of the name, "Chargoggagoggmanchauggauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg" has been cited (extra letters in bold). Its 17 uses of "g" are the most instances of any letter in a word. The name also contains 10 instances of the letter "a" (not including the "a" in "lake"), more than any word in the English language.

The claims about being one of the longest place names in the US and world might be possible to reference with the GNIS page, U.S. Geological Survey Geographic Names Information System: Lake Chaubunagungamaug, which says that the "long form name" is the fifth longest word in the world and the longest lake name anywhere, but note it says this claim comes from the Guiness Book of Records according to "The Boston Globe, 1992". While the USGS GNIS database is usually a reliable source, in this specific case I don't think it is.

Finally, note that one of the main references used, [2] (Fabrication leaves us gasping - Old twist to name of lake comes to light), is a dead link. Maybe someone can find a replacement? It would be nice if this page was better--the lake is famous for its name (the page gets hundreds of hits a day), but this page is more confusing than helpful about it. Pfly (talk) 18:17, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Wayback machine from 2006: http://web.archive.org/web/20060508005049/http://www.websterlakeassociation.com/GeneralInterest/Fabricationleavesusgasping.htm Snezzy (talk) 11:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_j4SmoTqBAQA/Se_oGeBBKkI/AAAAAAAAAy0/doZvITlARrY/s400/Webster_Lake.jpg&imgrefurl=http://runjun.blogspot.com/2009/04/webster-lakes-45-letter-name-misspelt.html&h=300&w=400&sz=37&tbnid=7GJculGKdVqVCM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=131&prev=/search?q=webster+lake&tbm=isch&tbo=u&zoom=1&q=webster lake&usg=__x565FMLtt1YSrLWUlEGMYEVBE2s=&sa=X&ei=ev4NToXZHJHPgAeO58zeDQ&ved=0CKMBEPUBMBA&dur=2055

Google Image of the sign in Webster Massachusetts with the correct spelling. Please correct the name. ChocoRiver (talk) 17:07, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Haha – have you read the blog entry the photo comes from? The sign is misspelt, and that's actually pretty much obvious. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

hahahhahahahah dat name d;D:DuxD"

Requested move 19 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) Calidum 00:34, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

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Lake Chaubunagungamaugg → Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg – offical name – A8v (talk) 19:10, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

@A8v:This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:39, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

• There seems to be dispute about which is the official name, and about the exact spelling. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:39, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Mmmm is this trying to compete with Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­llan­tysilio­gogo­goch? Pincrete (talk) 22:55, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

• The article says that another (and far easier to remember and pronounce) name of this lake is Webster Lake. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:05, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
• Comment, I think it is impossible to have any discussion until the proper and WP:Commonname are established, in this context 'commonname' refers to general use everywhere, rather than 'local name'. There may well be grounds for creating either 'Chaubunagungamaugg' and/or 'Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg' as redirects, but no justification for a rename without it being clear that this IS commonname.Pincrete (talk) 17:16, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:OFFICIAL and WP:COMMONNAME. Sources use the shortened one to refer to it, such as the USGS ([3]). Stickee (talk) 00:41, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. While the lake in question is mainly known for its long name, we should use the precedent we established with Llanfair PG and the other similar long place names and abbreviate the article title. ONR (talk) 07:04, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose proposed title, Support Lake Chaubunagungamaug (1 "g" at end) per WP:COMMONNAME, common shortened version seems to have one "g" at end, instead of two.--Staberinde (talk) 15:49, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

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Requested move 8 September 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 06:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

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Lake Chaubunagungamaugg → Lake Chaubunagungamaug – I'd like to change Chaubunagungamaugg to Chaubunagungamaug in the article title. The only difference is whether there's one "g" at the end or two.

• The body of water in question has been known as "Chabunagungamaug" from the earliest local records, according to the Smithsonian Institution.[4]
• It appears as L. Chaubunagungamaug in The Times Atlas of the World (1983).[5]
• "Lake Chaubunagungamaug" is the name of the lake as recognized by the U.S. Department of the Interior, see "Lake Chaubunagungamaug". Geographic Names Information System. United States Geological Survey, United States Department of the Interior.
• Google books gives only three hits for "Lake Chaubunagungamaugg",[6] but gives 238 hits for "Lake Chaubunagungamaug".[7]
• A general google search gives about 8000 hits for "Lake Chaubunagungamaug",[8] but only 1000 hits for "Lake Chaubunagungamaugg".[9]
• Encyclopedia Britannica says there is one "g" at the end instead of two.[10]
• The website of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts gives eight hits for the version with one "g" at the end, but no hits for the version with two at the end.[11]
• This Wikipedia article title had one "g" at the end until it was moved in July 2015.[12]
• Google Maps apparently shows one "g" at the end instead of two.Anythingyouwant (talk) 13:03, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Survey and discussion

• Oppose removal of Lake, it's a lake, and in either spelling described by Lake. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:29, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: That was just a typo on my part. I meant to include "Lake", and have inserted it just now.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:54, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - The most reliable source I could find regarding this article and the Lake's name is here. I keep finding many sites that say that it's spelled many different ways, including "Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg", "Lake Chaubunagungamaugg", "Lake Chaubunagungamaug", etc... Unfortunately, I am no Lake expert, so I'm going to leave the source I found here and hope that it helps with deciding the proper spelling of the Lake. If my article move was incorrect, please do not hesitate to move again and fix it - just leave the redirect from the old article alone, as it'll help other editors find the article if they spell it wrong. Cheers! ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 05:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for investigating. Unfortunately, it seems that the linked NYT article only mentions two names of this lake: Webster Lake, plus the incredibly long name having about 45 letters. I don't see that the NYT article mentions the name that is currently the title of this Wikipedia article (nor the title that I'm proposing). Go figure.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:58, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support, most reliable sources use the one-G spelling. ONR (talk) 06:04, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME, one "G" spelling is far more common.--Staberinde (talk) 15:36, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

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External links modified

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Pronunciation

Hi everyone,

it would be great if somebody could upload a record of the name of the lake (long and short version). It's hart to imagine how this word is actually pronounced. Have a nice day, -- T.seppelt (talk) 15:10, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

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name change

Why isn't the article named "Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg"? Theobegley2013 (talk) 13:18, 10 April 2024 (UTC)